Today, on the Early-Stage Founder Show, I’m talking with Drew Sanocki, the CMO of Teamwork, a SaaS company that creates business management apps to help streamline processes, connect with customers, and collaborate with your team.
Soon after getting his MBA from Stanford, Drew founded an online design retailer and quickly grew it to a leader in the space. After eight profitable years of operation, he sold the company and started consulting with other businesses, including a 10-month stint where he took an 8-figure business from bankruptcy to profitability. And today Drew helps build growth systems for 8 and 9 figure retailers.
While his background is in e-commerce, the framework he operates within applies just as well to SaaS startups and he is getting his chance to prove that by coming in as Teamwork’s CMO.
It’s easy for marketers to get caught up in tactics while losing sight of the big picture and today, Drew is going to help simplify things by laying out the 3 ways you can grow your SaaS startup and how he is implementing that plan at Teamwork.
If you ever feel like you’re churning through marketing tactic after marketing tactic without getting real results, then this is the episode for you.
(00:00:00): eCommerce/SaaS framework
(00:03:40): Multiplicative Relationship
(00:05:10): Simplifying framework further
(00:07:50): Smaller team vs. Bigger team strategy
(00:09:10): Real-world application of framework.
(00:09:50): eCommerce growth process
(00:14:05): Applying Jim Novo’s RF strategy
Plans at Teamwork:
(00:17:40): Lifetime value
(00:21:20): FB ad venture
(00:23:35): Webinars on FB
(00:25:00): Written vs. Video content on FB
(00:26:00): Creating video content
(00:26:55): Drew Sanocki as CMO & CSO
(00:29:30): Email and churn
Where to learn more:
To hear more from Drew on all things marketing, check out his blog, NerdMarketing.com. If you’re looking for some actionable advice on growing your business, sign up for his free e-course on how to double your business in a year.
ANDY: Drew, thanks so much for calling on the show today.
DREW: Pleasure to be here, Andy.
ANDY: So your background is in eCommerce, where you recently helped create ten million dollars in value for the streetcar retailer Karmaloop in only ten months. But now you're applying a similar framework for growth in the SaaS world at Teamwork. How are you approaching this new challenge?
DREW: That’s a good question. You know, the thesis is that there are really only three ways to grow a company, and in eCommerce, that’s: number one, increase your total number of customers, number two, increase your average order size, your AOV, and number three, increase the average number of purchase per customer. So those are really the only three things you have to work with, and if you translate those into the SaaS world, the same three should apply.
So instead of increasing the retention or increase the average number of purchases per customer, you’re basically going to want to increase churn. Instead of increasing your average order size, you want to increase ARPU or the average revenue per user. And then the third one, increase the number of customers, so just get more customers into the funnel from the get go.
And I like these three, you know, there’s a number of ways to break down revenue models for SaaS. I know that the Pirate Metrics, Dave McClure, is really popular, and this is just another spin on that. I think he breaks down acquisition, or total number of customers, into two or three other things; but, I like these three because it’s really simple for me to bucket all my marketing tactics and then really start with the easiest, most impactful ones first, and then see how we do.
ANDY: And it seems like to me, when you’re talking about it in your presentation at SaaS Fest, that a lot of it boils down to what Jay Abraham talked about way back when, in one of his books, about how the three ways to grow any business is increase revenue, increase frequency, and increase the number of customers. And it’s something that, when you get — especially in the SaaS world — when you get deep into things, you can lose sight at the end of the day that it really is that simple.
DREW: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting that you brought up Jay Abraham, that’s where I got it too, before I was in eCommerce, or at the get go when I started my eCommerce business I started reading these old direct response marketers, and Jay Abraham was one of the legends that I stumbled upon. And he – I don’t know if he pioneered this concept, but he certainly popularized this idea of these three levers.
And it really helps you simplify things, because I find you go to conferences or you read blog posts and you make these lists of literally hundreds of things you could do — tweaks and growth hacks, and things you should do, like, headlines you need to optimize and colors you need to change — all to grow your company. I think too often you end up in tactical maneuver hell, that you’ve got to step back and take a ten or a fifty thousand foot view of your company. Those three factors, for me, really help boil it down.
ANDY: And one of the other things I know you talked about was how… say your overall goal is to increase revenue by thirty percent. You talked about how if you would increase in each of those three options by thirty percent, it’s going to have a much, much bigger return. Like, to get to actual thirty percent overall you can do incrementally through each of those. What you called the “multiplicative relationship,” is that right?
DREW: Yeah, the idea is — it’s sort of an intimidating goal to want to double your company in a year. You kind of don’t know where to start. You get paralyzed. You think, “well it’s really ambitious.” But if you break it down and look at each of these three multipliers, all you have to do is increase each of them thirty-percent in the year, because the results multiply.
So, increase your ARPU thirty-percent in the year, is that doable? Yeah, probably. Decrease your churn thirty percent? Yeah, that could be doable. And certainly increase the total number of customers coming into your funnel, that’s doable because all you have to do is pay for it. Well, you know, each improvement seems sort of small, but if you multiply the results, you end up with a two-hundred and twenty percent increase in the company. So, 1.3 x 1.3 x 1.3 is two hundred and twenty percent.
ANDY: And that’s where it seems like it all kind of clicks in my head. Like, “oh wow, if I just pull these levers, it’s not this big insurmountable task that I once thought.” I’m like, “oh I want to double a company, I need to do this and do that;” and when you’re getting through tactical hell like you said, you’re gonna have this huge long list. But it’s not really prioritized, it’s not sorted, you have no idea where to get started first. So when you are looking at these three ways to grow a business, how do you decide — obviously it simplifies it just by the structure — but how do you decide when to get started?
DREW: Yeah that’s a good question. It obviously depends on — it depends on a company a lot. So Karmaloop I did this exercise, week one I show up in Boston at the Karmaloop offices and I’m in a conference room with the marketing team and the merchandising teams. And they’re telling me, “all you need to do to turn this company around is to spend more money on acquisition.” And, I’m thinking, “that’s not — nothing could be further from the truth!” Because, this is a company that did one-hundred million dollars, like, Dave spent money on every acquisition channel; and if it was just a matter of spending more money like that’s kind of what got them to bankruptcy in the first place.
For them, they had these latent resources, they had five million people, they still have five million people on their email list, and they weren't doing a lot of lifecycle marketing there, they weren't doing a lot to encourage second, and third, and fourth purchases. They also weren’t doing a lot of upselling and cross-selling at check out, and yet they had huge traffic numbers. So for them you had the low hanging fruit was increasing AOV, increasing the average order size with upsells and cross-sells, increasing retention by really trying to pull people back to buy using email.
And for either of those things, you really don’t have to spend a dime, so it sort-of dictated our marketing strategy. You know, you focus on those two things first. Then once you’re convinced that you’ve created this high converting/high retention machine, do you spend money on acquisition, you’re just going to get a much higher return on your investment. As a rule of thumb, I would say, if you’re big enough to have had some repeat customers, and I would say six/seven figure SaaS business or eCommerce business, then I like to start back at the funnel (and go) to the front.
So start with retention or churn, start hacking away there; any of your issues and improving there. Then move to increasing your ARPU. Only then start going to the, you know, what ninety-percent of the internet is about, which is acquisition hacks.
ANDY: Right, and, I’m curious because if you’re on a bigger team you can do a lot of this concurrently, but if you’re on a smaller team, how do you recommend someone — a small start-up — approaches this? Should they spend— have all of their marketing team, whether it’s just a couple people — should they focus them on just, “alright, you guys are doing churn until we get this figured out.” Or do you have them work on a few different things at once?
DREW: You know I think, at Teamwork, so, a marketing team of maybe six or seven people, we started in series and then we moved to in-parallel. So for one month we did nothing but churn. That’s all we talked about. Maybe it was one to two months. We, sort-of, picked off the low hanging fruit there. (Then) we moved on to ARPU, things like getting our cross-sells in order, mucking with the pricing page, increasing pricing. And then we moved on to acquisition and really spent some money on Facebook ads and content marketing.
But, I think at that point I felt like, “okay, we needed an all hands effort here, to try to give people an idea of what we were trying to do. Now let’s specialize a little bit, and I’m going to assign specific responsibilities.” Like, one person is dedicated to churn, one is dedicated to monetization, one is dedicated to acquisition. That, I think, is what is going to take the company to one-hundred million in revenue.
So, it probably depends on your company and your resources. I found it useful to start off in series, and then go in parallel, but, you know, if you’re a solo founder, got a small team/it’s just you, you might want to just focus on one of those buckets at a time.
ANDY: Because that’s one of the things, when you are in this internet marketing world, it’s so easy to get distracted by shiny objects. It’s so easy to be like, “oh I’m going to focus on churn, I’m gonna work on my onboarding, I'm gonna do this and I’m gonna do that.” Then you go to a conference and you hear this exciting talk about something entirely different, and you’re like, “oh, let me try this as well.” And then, six months down the line you realize you haven't really made much progress in any one thing.
I feel like when you have limited resources it’s important to stay focused and just see something through, not necessarily ’til the end, but until you’ve gotten most of those low hanging fruit out of the way.
DREW: Yeah, you know, the SaaS guys who I really learned a lot from are guys like Brian Balfour, who was at HubSpot, and he talks a lot more about a growth process as opposed to one specific “silver bullet” that’s going to make or break your company. And that plays really well with what I learned in eCommerce. My mentor, there was this guy John Bresee who started backcountry.com. Hundred-million-dollar eCommerce retailer and he told me, you know, “Drew, what matters, what wins in eCommerce is pressure over time.”
And I think it’s probably the same in SaaS now, it’s really — you’ve got to focus on the process, as opposed to any one tactic. And really have faith in that process and, for me, and for a lot of growth marketers I think it’s, the process’s, get all your ideas on paper, get them all on a spreadsheet, rank them, sort them, and just have that discipline of picking off the top, and really, like, implementing one idea at a time, or testing one idea at a time. You know, you’re really just conducting experiments, it’s not much different to what your developers are doing with Scrum or Agile.
If you read a lot about Sean Ellis, the guy who sort-of made a name for growth hacking, he did — I think he did — a dropbox and logged me in on a couple big companies. This other guy Nemo Chu, who’s, sort-of, the growth accuracy metrics, both these guys have the same approach, and it’s: get everybody in your team in one room, thrown all your ideas on the wall on a bunch of post-it notes, and then get them in a spreadsheet and rank top to bottom by two or three factors.
And those would be ease of implementation, expected impact, expected cost. I like those three. Sean Ellis calls them his ICE score. I also like to layer on my three buckets and give a hat-tip to the churn and the ARPU buckets first, because of the reasons we talked about earlier, just that it makes sense to start at the back of the funnel.
ANDY: So with that being said, what were the first priorities when you came on board at Teamwork?
DREW: You know, I wanted to look at churn first. I didn’t think we had — churn was about three percent — I don’t think it’s a big problem, it’s probably hard to improve it much, without doing a lot of work to the product. But we were doing some little things. We weren’t collecting feedback from customers that churned, to ask why they were churning, so that was a very quick fix we put in place. We used this app called Delighted, it gets your net promoter score and also we were able to tag that with a customer that was churning and send them through the survey process when they were churning. That’s one big thing.
We moved quickly onto ARPU and experimenting with how we could increase pricing. What came in my sights there first was the pricing page. Teamwork had a, like many SaaS companies, a really convoluted pricing page, with probably seven or eight different pricing plans. We stripped it down to three. We changed the order of the pricing table. And now we’re experimenting with increasing pricing.
All these are giving us really quick wins on the pricing side, I think we’ve got our ARPU from forty-five dollars up to around sixty bucks. Just off that pricing page, UI changes. So I think those were sort of the clearest, easiest places to start for us.
ANDY: This a little bit unrelated, but dive into some of those tactics. I know on the eCommerce side of things you have spoken a lot about Jim Novo, whose big focus is keeping it simple and focusing on recency and frequency as signals on users to target, or basically anything. So, are you using signals like that to try to work on predictive churn?
Like, are you looking at people who have not recently logged in, or people who have logged in the most in, like, pitching them up-sales? Are you trying to incorporate that into the SaaS model?
DREW: I am, yeah. So, for those who don't know, Jim Novo’s an old direct response marketer, cut his teeth in the catalog space, and ran home shopping network marketing for a long time. And he and other catalog marketers talk about these magical metrics, recency and frequency being two of them, that are super predictive of future lifetime value.
So someone who is on your site today is much more valuable than someone who was last on your site a year ago. And someone who has been on your site or purchased from you, ten times is probably more valuable going forward, than somebody who has purchased from you once or been on your site once. In the SaaS world, you can use R and F for all sorts of things.
You can break down your acquisition channels by average recency and frequency, and you’ve going to see that certain channels drive a much better customer than other channels. Maybe Facebook drives customers with a higher lifetime value than Adwords. And even within Facebook you might find that ad group one or ad set one drives super high RF and high LTV customers compared to other channels —
ANDY: How would you define the frequency in that — like SaaS, is it just how many months have they stayed paying? Or, like, how does frequency apply to purchase, like in eCommerce you can literally say “how many things have they bought?” But in SaaS, I feel like it’s less obvious.
DREW: Yeah, so you can do a couple things. First, we use frequency, historically, looking back at home many months a customer has been a customer. So it’s essentially a churn metric, how many months has this customer been a customer. And then you can get your average RF scores by channel.
But you also find that content and engagement in general, like RF as it applies to interaction with the websites. So in content marketing, the number of times someone visits the site, and how recently they visit the site, sort-of predicts how good a customer that person would be if they sign-up.
So, it’s a good way to get a quick read on how your content does. If you deploy a couple different pieces of content on your blog, you’re gonna see that some content is producing high RF activity compared to other content. That’s probably going to be a better piece for you. Which would mean, let’s put this on the home page, let’s add an opt-in form, let’s run with more kinds of content like this. It’s just, like, an early indicator, before you have to actually follow people all the way through a trial to a paying customer.
ANDY: It’s funny because when I was reading, I think his book is “Drilling Down,” and it was written — it might have been updated ten years ago, I don’t remember, it hasn’t been updated in awhile. But everything he was talking about was spot on. And at the time he was talking about how there were these enterprise level software tools that would try to, basically, predict using — it wasn’t machine learning at the time, but it was their equivalent — who’s going to come back, who do we need to reach out to, and all of this sort-of thing.
And his big pitch was, like, at the end of the day by just following RF, you’re going to get at least eighty-percent there. There are so many predictive churn tools out there now, that want to rely on big data and all the other buzzwords, but, most likely the signals that they're going to find that matter are going to be R & F.
DREW: Yeah, you know and you bring up churn so I’ve been talking about RF as it applies to lifetime value, but you can use it to predict churn, too. And for SaaS the number one metric you probably should be tracking for your customers is their last login time. That is more predictive of a churning customer than anything else. So when was the last time this customer was on the site? Or the last time he or she logged into the app? If that gets to be too long, a red flag should go up.
In our case at Teamwork we’re using it to trigger a —just a really simple automated email that says, “hey we noticed you haven’t logged in in awhile, is there anything we can help you with?” I think for higher LTV customers, or customers on your enterprise plans, instead of an email, it might be a phone call, you know? I know it sells force in big companies like that, a salesperson is actually getting on a plane to go and visit a client if they notice any kind of that lack of activity, right? So, I think these kind of dashboards are becoming easier and easier to build, using tools like getdrip.com (drip.co) or intercom.io I think you can set these kinds of triggers quite easily off of recency.
ANDY: And just so Rob doesn’t get mad at us, I think they’ve now changed the website to drip.co [LAUGHS]. But I remembered how he said he hated everyone calling it “get drip.” And there was some Tweet someone Tweeted at him today were they were like, “I’m a beginner at
get drip, but, uhm, Brennan [PH] Dunn help me get started. So now I’m also in the novice category with get dripped,” and I was like, Rob’s just going to shake his head at this —
DREW: I feel like he sort-of asked for that because he — they’re also called, generically, drip emails. It’s like calling something a lifecycle email, I’m just going to name my company lifecycleemail.com, right, so —
ANDY: Someone’s like “oh, this tool’s going to help me get that.”
DREW: Yeah. So I’ve always felt like I had to specify the URL when I mentioned it to somebody.
ANDY: We’ll make sure we get that URL in the show notes perfectly, Rob [LAUGHS]. I’m hoping to get him on the show, so I hope this doesn't turn him away, it’ll be our little secret.
But, anyway, we were talking about how you've prioritized and things, talking about some of the low-hanging fruit you called it at Teamwork. What do you see going forward in terms of the big wins that are left? It's probably going to be further down the list, so I’m guessing it needs to be more investment, whether it’s time, money, whatever. But what do you see as the big wins in the next few quarters for Teamwork?
DREW: I mean, I could tell you what — I thought a big win would be Facebook ads. And it is not a win right now. And I think that was my experiment for this quarter. I was bullish on them, the company was not, it took some convincing because I think in their minds, in the mind of your average SaaS person, they’re like, well, Facebook is for B to C, it’s where I hang out. But, I was arguing that you know, they are also like five billion people on Facebook, everybody’s on Facebook—
ANDY: Your audience is there.
DREW: — Right. So, we went hard on Facebook. We budgeted some money for experimental ads, we were promoting content, we were driving towards some targeted landing pages. We saw this initial huge uptick in trails, and after thirty days, we waited eagerly to see the influx of cash but none of those trials were converting to paying customers.
And so, I’m not ready to say it’s a failure, I think we need to be — there’s this saying in advertising, “if you’re not succeeding you're not targeted enough.” So I think we need to just dial in and make our ad copy much more relevant. It’s gotta lead to a much more targeted landing page, and maybe, ultimately, a much more targeted lead magnet or drip campaign. So, I think that’s our —
ANDY: Were you using look-alike audiences?
DREW: — We are. Yeah, we were doing look-a-likes, we were doing re-marketing, and nothing was — either the re-marketing ads are working, but as far as a source of new customer acquisition we haven’t figured it out yet. I think that’s still — I refuse to say it’s a loss at this point, I think it’s going to be a win in Q1, I’ve just kicked back the deadline for myself.
ANDY: Something where it’s — you clearly understand how to think about the funnel when it comes to Facebook ads, you’re not just trying to drive traffic to the homepage or any of the common mistakes. You get it. But, it’s like, I can imagine the frustration because you do have the basics in the place, well even more than the basics, but it’s getting it to work. And it’s easy to write it off, but at the end of the day, you know there are B2B SaaS companies that are killing it with Facebook ads.
DREW: Yeah. And, you know, you’ve got to ask yourself, where are you going to get the volume now? What is really going to drive volume for you? And there aren’t that many channels that can provide that kind of value on demand. Facebook is one of them. Adwords has always worked. It’s going to continue to work. We’re going to continue to push there, but I was sort-of optimistic that Facebook would be able to drive some volume. We are seeing videos working, Facebook live is working, webinars have always done really well for SaaS, conversion rates are good. We’re trying to take our webinar process and move it onto Facebook. To really leverage the power of Facebook live, I think Facebook’s putting some money behind live, and certainly what I’m seeing is we’re sort of punching above our weight there, we get a lot more distribution than you might expect for Facebook live. So, we’ll see. I guess that’ll be the next podcast, I’ll report back [LAUGHS].
ANDY: But I’m guessing that you’re going to have better results there because you’re keeping the Facebook users in the Facebook ecosystem. So you’re not trying to send them to landing page, lose forty percent of them who don’t put in their information and all of that. Like, you are driving traffic and keeping it all within the Facebook realm.
DREW: Yep. Yep. And really, the struggle we are undertaking at Teamwork is to try to produce more authentic content and we’ve played around with outsourcing content marketing, in-sourcing content marketing, and I think we’ve got a specific customer that we’re going after. We target development agencies, marketing agencies, and we need to talk with authority about how they can grow their teams. We’ve struggled a little bit with the written content because we’re not an agency, but I think one thing that resonates and really has authenticity is video. We have been able to do that pretty well. We put our team on camera, and we have some authority that we haven't been able to find yet in a lot of our written content.
ANDY: Are you, where does the source of the content come from? Is it still written by your team and then it’s just, not read, but performed on video. Or are you doing interviews, or how is that working?
DREW: So we just rolled out a podcast that is essentially one guy who's really strong in audio and visual at Teamwork, carrying around a mic, interviewing people on how they use Teamwork, but also, really, like how they run their team. That is about to launch, and I listened to the first five episodes and I am really excited about that, because that is good stuff, and it’s not “sales-y” it’s just how do you grow your team, how do you run your team. I like that.
I think with the video stuff it’s a lot of — if we’ve got a lot of questions from customers about one or two specific features, or if we do something, where how they’d use Teamwork to do something. We’ve got two or three people on the same team that can hop on a video or a webinar to create a piece of content about that.
ANDY: And so are you guys — because you said webinars, they work well in SaaS in general, but have you done much with webinars so far?
DREW: Yeah, I mean, the sales team runs several a week. That’s the enterprise sales team. I think we’re trying to bring in marketing, we’re trying to bring that approach a little bit more to the masses, and sort of blow it out a little bit.
ANDY: So is that primarily where your focus with the marketing efforts are, more-wider market, rather than, kind of, top of the LTV scale?
DREW: It’s a bit of a challenge, so I am not only the CMO, I am also the CSO. I initially came in with the perspective that I wanted to grow the consumer business or the retail business, whatever you want to call it, the, sort of long tail. People who could come to the site and sign up. We had an enterprise sales team that focused on that twenty percent of our enterprise clients that are big. And now I’m running both the sales team and the marketing team, so I can’t really focus, I need to spread myself across both.
But I definitely think it’s doable and I think the enterprise sales team is like the small hinge that’s going to swing a big door. They are bringing — increasing our MRR month over month with some of these big enterprise contracts.
ANDY: Interesting. And, so, the last thing that I want to ask before we wrap things up, is, other than the content, other than the Facebook ads, what is the one big challenge you want to tackle beyond those things in the next quarter?
DREW: I think email’s a huge opportunity for Teamwork. We’ve got several hundred thousand people on our list, and this is a company, much like Karmaloop, that has never done a lot of lifecycle or triggered emails. So we switched from, sort of a monthly company update that was like, “hey, here’s an employee profile, and here’s our office and stuff,” to more of an ongoing, as often as once a week feature update or new feature release, or something like that. Every time, every email that goes out now is triggering trails and conversions to paid customers, so I think that’s going to be a big win for it, and a big opportunity for the next quarter.
ANDY: Nice. And that’s something we’ve seen too, the feature updates, even if people aren’t signing up for those features themselves, it seems like perspective users like knowing that these guys are constantly improving their product, they're constantly putting new stuff out, let me give them a try. And we’ve seen an up-tick. Whenever those new go out, you’ll see new trial stuff, you’ll see conversions.
And it feels like it might be harder to measure, but I think that’s definitely going to have an impact on lowering churn. Because it has a current user saying “hey, they're not just sitting around. The product’s not getting stale. So those are like a weird thing that I wouldn’t have expected to have so much of an impact as they actually have.
DREW: Exactly my thought process, I initially was thinking, we have so many people on the list who are just sitting there. We’ve got to get them off the fence, you know we’ve got to get them to take a trail. The unexpected or unanticipated byproduct, however, has also been reducing churn.
My thesis is just that it, sort of, creates the subconscious, or the idea that this company is working on the product, that I don’t want to be left out, that it might not be doing everything I want right now, but, hey, they’re working on it and I don’t want to miss out. I’m locked into my price, I don’t want to cancel my account, I’ll go another month. So that’s been a pleasant byproduct of more frequent emailing.
ANDY: And that’s the thing, is that, for someone to churn in a B2B SaaS app you need to do something pretty wrong. Because, like, the switching costs are relatively significant depending on what your app does. So if they’re saying, “I don’t care how much of a pain in the ass this is for me to get all my data out of this app, get it into something else, get my team trained.” They’re pissed off. But if you can just reassure them that, like, hey we’re constantly improving, we’re working on it, we’re working on it. That might be enough to get them to be like, “alright, alright I’ll stick around for a little bit.”
So we covered a ton right now, so I just want to wrap up with a few quick questions and the first one is:
Right now, whether it’s with Teamwork, your other consulting, just anything in general, what are you spending too much time doing?
DREW: I’m on ESPN too much [LAUGHS] reading about the Patriots.
ANDY: Well there’s a lot to read about, so hopefully we have until February to keep reading about.
DREW: As a fellow New Englander, you recognize that it is time well spent.
ANDY: I just want to see Goodell hand Tom Brady the trophy—
DREW: Tom Brady the trophy, we all do, we dream about… MVP trophy in one hand and Super Bowl in the other, he’s got to give them both to Brady at the same time. So, I’m reading too much on ESPN.
ANDY: What do you think you’re not spending enough time doing?
DREW: Content marketing.
ANDY: When you say that, what do you mean?
DREW: I should be cranking out more content both for Teamwork and on my own blog nerdmarketing.com. I wish I had more time in the day to do that. But, everything I’ve done that, it’s like investing in your own brand, and in the brand of your company. And the payoff is not immediate but in the long term it's like an investment. You’ve got to do a little bit every week, and stay in contact with your audience and it will pay dividends down the road. I wish I had more time to content market.
ANDY: So even though you didn't do the best job selling your blog right there [LAUGHS] I still want to give — if listeners want to hear more from you, where is the best play for them to go?
DREW: They should go to nerdmarketing.com. And I’ve got a short, free e-course on how to double your business in a year at nerdmarketing.com/double
ANDY: Awesome and I’ll make sure to get all of that linked up in the show notes. And if you’re listening and you’re a little on the fence of whether to go, because Drew just said he never updates it, he is being a little bit bashful. There is a lot of content up there and he does update it. [LAUGHS} He was just saying he wants to do more, so, please —
DREW: I just want to do it more than I have been doing it.
ANDY: Well, Drew, it was a lot of fun chatting today, I just want to say thanks again for coming on the show.
DREW: Yeah, thanks, Andy, anytime.