Pat Bhava on How to Break into the Challenging EdTech Market

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Today, I’m talking with Pat Bhava (LinkedIn), the Founder and CEO at PikMyKid, a technology company established with the goal of streamlining the student dismissal process in a safe, secure, and expeditious manner. Since launching in 2013, Pat’s team has grown and so has the product which now serves as a platform to make it easy for schools to connect with parents. 

Pat and his team raised a $1 million seed round back in September and they are currently working on another round to fund their rapid growth. Most of my guests so far have avoided going the VC route, so this chat today is a great change of pace.

Today, Pat talks about what it’s like running a VC funded company, but where we really dive in is the challenges of selling into schools, how he had to get creative at the start, and how their sales model is changing as they grow. 

Not only is Pat a former fighter pilot and deep sea diver, but he is a successful entrepreneur who has built and sold three companies, and he shares a ton of knowledge with us today.

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Topics covered:

  • How PikMyKid first started presenting their product to schools. (3:38-4:41)
  • Turning the success of one product into many.  (9:10-9:54)
  • The platform strategy & what’s coming next.  (11:41-12:45)
  • Ramping up to meet anticipated demand. (25:39-27:53)
  • Planning for future challenges and how to overcome them. (28:15-30:17)
  • Playing to your strengths and those of your “incubators”. (30:42-32:10)

Resources mentioned:

FAN Fund
Florida Funders

Where to learn more:

To follow along on Pat and his team's journey, check out PikMyKid. And if you have any questions for Pat, tune into the interview for his email address.

Transcript:

Andy: Pat, thanks so much for coming on the show today.  

Pat:  Absolutely man, thanks for having me,

Andy: Of course. So I was actually talking with our mutual friend, Steve Tingiris, who is one of the investors in a recent seed round you closed, and he said, “Andy, you really need to talk to Pat. He’s a great founder, he has a great product.” So I was looking, you run PikMyKid, and you create school dismissal software. So one of the things we talked about a little in leading up to this interview was some of the difficulties of selling into schools.

So do you want to talk just a little about some of your background and how you decided for this startup to sell to schools because that’s super easy, right?

Pat: So a little bit about my background, I was a fighter pilot and a deep sea diver in the Indian Navy, I did that for 11 years. And then it came time to sit behind a desk and realized that wasn’t me. So I quit, it’s called a premature retirement. So I got out and joined my family here in the U.S., that was in 2006.

Since then, in the last 10 years, I’ve built and sold three other companies ranging from food business, a chain of restaurants, to manage services to real estate. Just as I sold the last business, I was getting burnt out of doing 15 hours a day. I told my wife I was going to take a year off and do really nothing, kinda Netflix all day long.

Well as you guessed, it didn’t last very long. Two weeks later she said the least you could do was go pick up your daughter. So answering your second question, getting into the school mess was not a choice. So I was sitting in this damn car line to pick up my daughter, one thing led to another and I thought this is broken. The only tools that the schools used to manage the whole process are walkie talkies, clipboards, and sticky notes. In today’s day and age, everybody drives up autonomous or semi-autonomous cars, and when it comes to the safety of your children, it’s all up in the air. And that kind of bothered me.

And I was like scores of other parents who were complaining and doing nothing about it. Until this one fine day I was driving through the car line and they opened the door and I was on the phone not really paying attention, and they opened the door and put a kid in the car and I was just driving out, I turned around and looked and see this white kid sitting in the back of my car. So that was when it hit me like a ton of bricks, it’s like holy shit, something’s got to be done about it.

Andy: Yeah.

Pat:  So I really jumped in to help find a product to help my school out. There was nothing available, and I had no choice.

Andy: Wow. And so you create the product. Are you a developer yourself?

Pat: No, not at all, far from it. I couldn’t code if you put a gun to my head. But I saw a problem and I said, you know what, I’ll figure it out. And I kind of can figure things out. I can out a team and lead people, and that’s something which I’m really comfortable finding the best talent. And two years from now we’re here. From then I just put a team together and that’s how it started.

Andy: How long was it before you had something that you were comfortable actually presenting to the schools?

Pat: So if we had sat down and kept thinking we need to really get the best product out there, we would never. Frankly, even now, we’re not perfect. We are in about 17 states and 3 different countries, but we’re constantly training. That is something that I had and I read a lot, but if it is 80% there, just put it out there. If what you think is the right product, the customers may not think so. Sure enough, the first few schools we fell flat on our face, we were kicked out. We went back and retooled it and what we think is good for them is not really what they think is good for them.  

So yeah, we went through a whole process. Initially, we were giving it away free to schools just for their feedback. But after about 6-8 months we thought that we really had a product that worked, and that’s when we turned the switch on to start collecting money.  

Andy: And once you started collecting money, once you were making a real sale, what did you discover about the actual process? Who are you primarily pitching to and how does that whole process work?

Pat: So initially we made the mistake of actually going after the big gorillas in the room, like the big districts in the county. We were thinking it was going to be easy and just knock it out of the park and it’s a done deal. But as we started dealing with the bureaucracies and the process in the district and various levels and the budget cycles and all that, we realized one month led to three months to six months, and still, nothing was in the pipeline. So it made us pause and regroup and ask if we were doing the right thing. Are we barking up the right tree?

So one thing early on which we did that helped us move forward was we learned from that mistake and we said we’re not going to sell to any big institutions or big school system anymore. We’re going to go after the private and the charter schools and prove the concept out there. If the pain is acute enough, they’ll pay for it. And then scale it and show the model for big corporates and school districts to adopt it.  

So we absolutely stopped talking to any districts thereafter, for the next 6 months we were laser focused on onesie, twosie school systems and we had a pretty good run there.

Andy: And once you start talking to these schools, are there many competitors in this space?

Pat: Actually the other competitors are “Tropophobia”.

Andy: So for listeners who don’t know what that means, can you go into that?

Pat: It’s fear of change. Because they have done this dismissal process for so long and every school has endured the pain for so long, parents assume that is the fact of the way you pick up children. For so long they don’t know any better. It’s like the first time the steam engine came along and people didn’t know what to do with it. They thought the horse drawn carriage was the best thing man had ever invented.   

So the biggest challenge for us was to go to them and say, “Hey, there is a better way. And you’ve got to try this.” And initial pushback is hard, it’s too much tech and too much we don’t know if our people will understand this. And so our challenge is to break it down and make it really simple and actually explain it like one, two and three. Three steps, this is what you do, and pull the fear out of the mix.

Andy: Right, because at least at that point they’re not really questioning the solution. They’re not saying this won’t work, they’re more saying this is going to be really hard for us to change everything to get everyone on board.

Pat: Absolutely. They look inwards and say I have these teachers ranging from 20-year-olds to 60-year-olds, some of them don’t want to touch computers, the whole spectrum. They look at training, they’ve never engaged parents in such a broad manner. That’s one of the major things.

Initially went we went to the schools they were asking us, “It critically depends on parents adopting your system, right?” We said, “Yes, what percentage of parents do you think will adopt it?” And we didn’t know, the only way was to find out. But now, 14 months after the launch, we can confidently tell every school that within 4 weeks of launch at any school, any demographic, any geography, we see 85-90% parent adoption. So to put that in perspective, in the history of K-12, there has not been a single platform which has commanded more than 25% parent adoption.   

Think about that for a second. The schools in their entire history have never been able to engage more than 25% of the parents on a platform. But by just hitting on this one pain point that is so near and dear to parents, we actually captured the whole lot of them.

Andy: It’s because the problem is so broken right now, it’s such a pain that if this can make it easier, they’ll do it.

Pat: They’ll do it. And that was the challenge to actually convince them. Now we had the data we could go back and say, “Hey, we could show school after school which has this mass adoption from parents, and now you can use the adoption for other products and services and get messages out.  

So that kind of segues to the second thing that I wanted to also mention that was we started as a single problem solver, one solution solving one problem. By us addressing the problem and capturing 85%-95% of the parent population, we are in the process of being a standalone solution to one problem, to becoming a platform where other solutions can coexist.

Andy: Do you have ideas of other specific solutions that you’re looking to partner with?

Pat: Absolutely. So in pushing the top brasses further, as a first step we already have slapped on a fully robust communication platform right on top of us. Which means for the first time, schools are able to send push notifications in real-time to parents for anything – it may be dismissal related, it may be that 5th grade needs to get their football shoes tomorrow, or that bus #45 is running 20min late – whatever the messaging may be, we are able to hyper-segment the groups and target parents through push notifications. And the schools love it. They look at this and think it’s awesome, for the first time they’re able to reach parents individually without blasting them out.

I get so many messages from the school, and none of them are relevant to me. I get immune to that. Plus, it’s a voicemail being sent to me and text messages, which interrupts my process. It’s archaic.  

Andy: At this day and age, not having that basic segment. Like if you were to run a startup with a big mailing list and you didn’t segment them at all, just sent the same thing out, you’d be crazy. You wouldn’t survive. But schools just aren’t doing that.

Pat: Absolutely. So we actually started selling the first school from Mexico who came on board to buy our product, not because of the dismissal application, but they especially wanted the messaging piece.

Andy: Interesting.

Pat: For them, that was so valuable. So different people they see different values. So in terms of the platform strategy that we moved forward with, the first one was the messaging piece which we slapped on. And it’s completely free and bundled along with our dismissal product.

The second one, we were listening to our customers right from the beginning, and last year schools came back to us and said to us, “Hey PikMyKid, can you put a payment gateway on top of your platform so we can collect our lunch money and we can collect our $7 checks and $3 PTA fees?”

Andy: How are they doing that now?

Pat: So every school has at least 5-10 different applications that are recommended to parents, but none of them get downloads more than 3-5%. So imagine if you were a parent and you had a kid and you had to download an app just to pay her lunch money three times a year. It’s not compelling enough for you. But if you had an app that you could use to track the dismissal process and if it also had an additional page where you could pay your lunch money, you’d go in and “boom” be done. So that’s the next thing coming to the pipeline.  

Andy: In the beginning did you have the idea of building a platform in mind? Was that what you set out to do, or did you just see that opportunity and then make that happen?

Pat: Absolutely not. It goes back to the same question of how do you pick a deck and how do you pick education. I didn’t pick that. Sometimes we’ve got to be naïve and stupid and should not know the big picture, because if you had known that picture, you’d never have gotten into things.

Andy: If you had known how complex or hard it was going to be, you would have just stayed out.

Pat: Sometimes you just need that bull-headed, obstinate kind of approach that I will make it happen and I will figure it out. That’s how I got into it and really got in and listened to customers. We wanted to solve this one problem and we got into this whole other problem of parent engagement, solving this whole other problem of parent engagement. Now we ask ourselves, ok, based on that what else can we do. And customers are talking back to us and saying this is what we want and this is what we need.

And another little thing that is coming up in a big way, is school’s today – if they have a day trip or bring your grandma to school – so without thinking about it even for a second, they go to their printer and print out 600-700 sheets of paper and shove those little pieces of paper into backpacks, and hope like hell that parents read it and sign it and send it back.  

Now again, today’s day and age, that happens more often than not. So electronic news bulletins and electronic signature stamps, that’s coming down the pipeline as well. So there are so many other things. But as a platform, when you have parent engagement, there are so many problems that can be solved, and in terms of priority which ones do we want to pick first.

Andy: Right, and it’s getting that initial engagement because that gives you the opportunity. If you were just another app that 5-10% of parents downloaded, you wouldn’t have these opportunities. But by solving a pain that was so bad – something that hurt so much – and that was so important to the parents, by fixing that for them you then had a way to now access them for all the other things that schools are trying to fix.  

Pat: Absolutely. And when you have so much adoption, you become the de facto mode of communication. So we are more of a communication platform in schools where we’re at already.

Andy: Interesting. So in the early days, are you just cold calling school administrators? How are you actually getting in front of these schools to make the sale?  

Pat: So it was interesting. Initially, we did a little experiment where we thought what would be our best go to market strategy. So we picked up four major things we want to address, four approaches. So I picked schools in my neighborhood, and I picked 200 schools I wanted to call and email, and think we sent some gift bags to 25 principals. So just an experiment, low cost to see what works. So what really came out of that whole experiment was people don’t know that the solution exists. And the people who acknowledge that this is a solution that they need and they have the leadership to see the implementation, we have almost 60-70% conversion ratio from that.

Andy: Wow.

Pat: But if I was pounding the pavements and going into schools and talking to principals, and they don’t realize that it’s a problem and they don’t acknowledge they need to do this. I can do whatever I do, but I can’t convert them. So one thing that came out of that is any inbound organic traffic, we have about 50% conversion of that.  

Andy: Wow.

Pat: But any outbound outreach, we have far less than a percent of people who really acknowledge a problem and want to do something about it. So we said ok, let’s just blow open the top of the inbound funnel and do everything we can to increase the inbound traffic. So if you search for us, our SEO strategy is really powerful, and if you just search for any of our keywords we will actually come up on the first page in three different ways. Of course, we’ll have the page search, we’ll have the YouTube content, and of course organically we come up 2nd or 3rd.

Andy: Wow. So instead of in the beginning when you’re looking at inbound leads, you’re looking at outbound efforts. Instead of saying outbound is not working so let’s put all our eggs into trying to figure this out and make it work, you’re saying no, we’re getting results from inbound let’s just double down on that. Is that accurate?

Pat: Absolutely. And because our product is attuned to that sort of approach, we had to ship no hardware, we had to get on no planes to install, it’s completely Cloud based. So it doesn’t matter if the school is down the street from me where I can walk to or if it is in Timbuktu. It does not matter. We have the same approach and we put in the same amount of energy and everything else. So why limit yourself to certain geographies, so let’s just blow it up and talk to anyone that has this problem and actively seeking for a solution. Because we will have more than 50% conversion rate from the person who’s actually looking and seeking and acknowledging the problem.   

Andy: Interesting. So I didn’t realize that to get set up you don’t have someone from your team physically go to the school to onboard them or anything like that?

Pat: No. So the first 10 schools I physically flew out to them and actually met with the people and all that. All the while we were looking at every little aspect of the onboarding process and seeing how we can bring it online, how we can optimize it, how we can put a system to it. So 13 or 15 schools onwards, nobody had to get on a plane, nobody had to know where the school is, it’s all virtual. We set them up, the product is in the Cloud, there is no hardware being shipped. So we are completely hardware agnostic. That’s one of my primary governing factors for starting the company. We will ship no hardware, it should be completely scaleable, we don’t want any hardware dependencies on the children. Because then it can’t be cost effective if you have to do all those things.

Andy: I was looking at the website and I think I just Googled “PikMyKid” and there were all these news stories that would come up. And one was in a local news station in Tampa, and they were basically just giving your pitch for you on the news. They were interviewing parents who were in line for picking up their kids and asking them about different solutions. And basically at the end of it, they just said that PikMyKid solves this, all schools should use them. How do you get amazing PR like that?  

Pat: So that was one of our strategies. For the first time, we had the solution. It’s not just another app. It makes a tangible difference to people’s life in a meaningful manner. Parents and teachers swear by it. Kids are safer. Every stakeholder in the system stands to benefit in immense ways. The only thing standing in our way is the old school top brasses and that thing of they don’t know any better.  

So we said we need to blow that myth away. And just to put this in perspective – it may rub some people the wrong way – but let me just say this so you understand the scope of it. So a lot of top leadership in schools are really great and they look at solutions and problems and look for the best solutions in schools. But then some people are not so open to new ideas. If they do something new, they may be held responsible for it, and if they don’t do anything new they won’t be responsible. So that’s a very odd way of looking at things, but at the top brass that does exist.  

Andy: You can’t get fired for hiring IBM.

Pat: Exactly. So with that, top brass is just pushing a little further. A new product is coming on the market and I have to actively support it, endorse it, and get it onboarded. Or, maybe I brush it under the carpet and pretend they didn’t exist. We’ve done this for 50 years, what could go wrong. So I’ve got to find a new line item and a space in the budget for this new product that just came on the market, and actually be proactive about safeguarding our children.  

So the times we go into meeting rooms, we come back flabbergasted. So the way we wanted to handle that kind of the process is let’s make it public knowledge that the solution exists. Through the grassroots level awareness – I know it’s a lot more work doing out PR and marketing and content strategy and all of that – but once that is common knowledge that there is a better way for the dismissal to work smoother, then why is the school not using it.

Andy: They can’t ignore it anymore at that point.

Pat: That can’t ignore it anymore. So that’s the challenge of being pretty early in the market and addressing an unaddressed urgent space, so to speak, whitespace. People don’t know the solution exists. And that’s why we had to take that strategy. It was a compulsion that we wanted to make that awareness happen, we wanted the parents to know that the solution exists.    

Andy: And so were you actively reaching out to reporters and news stations, or did it happen more just as a coincidence?

Pat: Initially yes, we were actively reaching out to reporters through my network with my previous businesses, I had a lot of friends in the media. And then being with all the incubators in the Tampa area, any incubator you can think of in town, we’ve had relationships with them. So that really gives us the networks and the connections to actually tell a story. Because the other way, we suppress the story long enough until the product is actually ready.     

Andy: Because you don’t want to be getting all this PR, and then not be able to meet the expectations that you’re setting.  

Pat:  Absolutely. Even now we haven’t hit the national media. Because I don’t think if 100 schools we chartered today, we can sell to them, We’ve got to slowly scale it up. And so we have consciously avoided national media. But slowly the story is getting out because every school that gets on board, they want to do their own press release and those stories are starting to build up now. And also, when something happens in any school – especially back to school time – the news gets involved. So they come back to us for comments and so it’s kind of picking up.

Andy: The article I saw was where the kid got confused about the buses and walked a mile home. And it was a 5-year-old kid walking by himself, and the reporter himself realized there had to be a solution out there and was Googling and found PikMyKid. And then they just did the segment on it. That was super impressive, because at that point, any parent watching that is going to ask why their school doesn’t have that. And when they have the pressure from outside, the schools just can’t sit around anymore.

Pat: The power of the soccer mom.

Andy: So for you guys to get to a point where you can handle 100 schools coming on, what do you need to do to change to ramp up for that?  

Pat: So we are in the process of ramping up. Last year at this time we were 5 people sitting in my garage at my house. Today we have an office with 14 people. Four of our key people are technology, so they are always putting new features and making sure it’s fully robust, squashing bugs as they come up and new requirements from schools making sure we can actually add on.  

So in every aspect, we are kind of scaling as we grow. So this year we should round off this year with about 80 schools. Next year our target is 1,200 schools. So going 80 to 1,200 is massive, so we’re planning for that kind of ramp. Primarily because we’re shifting our strategy. Remember what we talked about earlier and going back into individual schools? So now I think we are in a position to actually pivot from talking to individual schools to actually school districts.

Andy: I was going to ask how you were going to hit that insane growth. And yeah, instead of selling the onesies and twosies – as you said – you sell one district that will filter out to dozens of schools.

Pat: Absolutely. So we already set our strategy in place a couple of months ago, so now the entire process will be talking to school districts. And we have about half a dozen school districts already doing pilots with us. So when they turn around and say they want to go system wide, that’s where the growth would come in.

And of course, we've got to be ready for that in terms of team and support. Because everything is handled in-house, we do 24/7 customer service. We don’t want to sell it to a school and let that school hold the bag at the end of the day, so we take the burden off the schools. We are primarily there to help the schools and not create more problems. So we handle everything to do with the app or customer service and changing that contact information, all those kind of Admin things which can come along with an app, we handle everything in-house.       

Andy: Because you guys want to be the easy solution, you want to save them from having to put 50 teachers out there doing all this paperwork. You now want to say, “We’ll do all of it for you to make it easy.”

Pat: Absolutely.

Andy: And so what are the challenges you see ahead – other than obviously expanding – but to get to that 1,200 schools, what are the main challenges that you see you’re going to need to overcome?

Pat: One is, of course, having the gunpowder to actually push through funding. If our sole aim was just the money, we already raised it, but we’re looking for the right partners from where the money would come through. To give some perspective, we want the investors to have the ability of not only finding us but also make connections and introductions to the right people, so it helps us scaling the business as well.

So that is one of the biggest challenges when I’m talking to investors. That’s one thing where I absolutely say, “Hey, it’s great you want to invest, but that can you bring to the table other than the money?” We want them to make introductions, but not just introduce us, but to actually follow through on the sale and with channel partners.

There are so many ways we want to grow, and we’ve identified 3 key growth areas. One is direct sales, one will be channel strategy where we partner with companies all around the tech space in non-competing products where we can cross sell. And the third would be the platform strategy, getting other vendors on our platform and actually letting them do the bidding for us.  

So we’re working on multiple fronts right now. The idea is not to get in the black as soon as possible. The idea is to scale it as soon as possible, gain market share, and be the first since it’s an untapped market segment. Now people are sitting up and taking notice that this was existing and we missed this slice in the ed tech market.

Andy: I’m curious, this is something that’s a bit off topic but you clearly have a lot of experience in the business world starting multiple businesses in multiple different fields. What led you to join so many different incubators? As an outsider, I can say why would you want to do that when you already have, I assume, a lot of experience?

Pat: So that’s one thing which I highly recommend to everybody out there who is listening. You can never be in a position of knowing it all. The day you think that you know it all, you’ll be dead in terms of growing yourself. And I feel that every incubator has provided me so much input that it reflects in some form on the company building. Each of these incubators had a play, but having said that, no incubator in itself is an end all solution. Everybody has to stand strong. Somebody that does great in funding, somebody that does great in the early stage, somebody that does great at growth hacking, somebody has a great mentor with a great networking opportunity.

I have great networking opportunities. Last week I was in Silicon Valley meeting all the top execs in the tech business. New York, Boston, and D.C. tomorrow. So everybody has their strong points. I don’t know much about ed tech, I’m going to learn as much as anybody else knows, and I will talk to as many as it takes to know everything.

Andy: And it seems like that also goes into your strategy in approaching venture capitalists is that you’re not looking for someone whose expertise is signing checks and leaving you alone. You’re looking for someone who can really add value above and beyond the money.  

Pat: Absolutely. Actually, it reflects in a previous round as well. If you look at our previous round, in our stage of growth when we were putting our seed money together and raising a million dollars, it was very easy for us being in Tampa to get that million dollars fully funded by 10-15 Angel Investors. But we consciously took a position, we said that we are only going to talk to institutions with a formal due diligence process so it preps us for the next round. It’s not like poor uncle Bob or an Angel Investor that came in and threw a million dollars at me.  

So with that process in mind, we went with The FAN Fund in Orlando, so now we are happy that we have our ducks in a row and the Florida funders who actually were the biggest investor in that round. So by virtue of us going to Florida funders to put that in perspective, that’s a group of Angel networks that come together and make the investment as one entity.

So now, although we have one entity, we have 39 different investors in the Tampa Bay area who have actually contributed to that fund. Now I can call up the top 39 guys in Tampa and ask them to make introductions. So that’s really powerful to have that tool, that network and their connections.

Andy: Without having a cap table that is an absolute mess.

Pat:  Yes.

Andy: Because I’m sure the VC’s you’re talking to now, if they’d have seen 39 people now, they would have wondered what they were getting into.

Pat:  Yeah. So keeping it very simple and looking at the right partners is critical. Especially in the early stage growth.

Andy: Awesome. There is honestly a thousand different directions I could go with this if we had another few hours, but we’ve crammed a lot in there right now. So to wrap things up I have a few just quick questions I want to go through.

The first one is, right now, what do you think you’re spending too much time doing?

Pat: At the current moment I’m spending in the VC circuit meeting with all the VC’s and the fundraising aspects. But eventually where I would want to spend most of my tie is in the sales process. So I can’t wait for this road trip to be over so I can get back to our sales.

We have a pretty strong tech team. So startups are like this black hole where you have one thing sorted out – I’ve sorted out the technical challenges – and then the sales thing pops up and you spend all your time doing it for the next few days and then something else pops up. So it’s a constant juggle, but for the near future for the next couple of months while we scale from onesie-twosie schools to district-wide and the strategy needs to change, so my focus right now is actually on the sales process.

Andy: And so building in that, what are you hoping to accomplish in the next quarter? Do you want to already have the model figured out for how to go after these bigger schools, or what are you looking to accomplish in the next quarter?

Pat: So we’ve come up with a pretty exhaustive strategy. I don’t want to touch into the specifics of it, but we’re going laser focused on what kind of buyer profile would look like. We came up with a target of 2,000 districts in 11 states, and we kind of came up with that figure using filters like; what does their budget look like in the last 3 years, what is the population density. All the layers we could lay on, we came up with a very focused target of 2,000 districts we want to start talking to. And if we can earn even 5% of that, I think we could hit 100 targets easy.

Andy: And so we’ve talked about that 1,200 targets for the year, what is your long term view for PikMyKid?

Pat: Like I touched upon earlier, my long term perspective is to make this a credible platform. More from being a stand-alone solution to being a platform. So eventually we would be the de facto communication platform for schools. But having the schools, kids, and parents involved in the same place.   

Andy: Interesting. So Pat, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to join us. Before I say goodbye, if listeners want to hear more from you, if they want to follow your story, if they want to learn about PikMyKid, where should they go?

Pat: The best place would be – and where you can get all our information – would be our website. But you can reach me personally at **redacted**. Anytime, shoot me an email and I’d be more than happy to throw my two cents at it.

Andy: Awesome. I’ll get all of that linked up in the show notes. I just wanted to say thank you again for taking the time to do this, It was a lot of fun talking to you today. 

Pat: Thanks, Andy, thanks for having me. It was great.