Early-Stage Founder 002: Ryan Battles on Growing Your SaaS With Uncommon Tactics

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Hey everybody, welcome back to episode number two of the early stage founder show, the podcast for B2B SaaS founders looking to accelerate their growth. I’m your host, Andy Baldacci, and every Tuesday I’ll bring you a brand new interview with startup founders, venture capitalist, consultants, anybody who has been there before and can provide actionable lessons to help your startup get to the next level.

Today I’m talking with Ryan Battles, author of SaaS Marketing Essentials and co-founder of Harpoon, a financial goal‑setting, time‑tracking, and invoicing app for freelancers and consultants. Ryan shares what lead to him writing SaaS Marketing Essentials, how he has applied those lessons to Harpoon, what has worked well, what hasn’t, and shares the surprising ad channel they used to cheaply build a launch list.

Ryan has a great mind for thinking holistically about how to build and market your SaaS, he literally wrote the book on it, so you guys are in for a treat with this one.

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Transcript:

[sociallocker]

Andy Baldacci: [00:01] Ryan, thanks for coming on the show today.

Ryan Battles: [00:02] Thanks, Andy. Thanks for having me.

Andy: [00:04] The beginning of last year you published "SaaS Marketing Essentials" which is the ultimate guide to launching and growing your SaaS application. To get started can we talk about what your background is and what led up to you publishing that?

Ryan: [00:16] Yeah. I've been more of a web developer by trade. When I started building applications and getting interested in building a SaaS app, I realized that my biggest knowledge gap from where I needed to be was in the SaaS marketing world.
[00:34] Being a friend and student of Nathan Barry's, he has been a big proponent of teaching what you know. I thought, "I'm going to learn everything I can about SaaS marketing, and the way I'm going to internalize that is by turning around and teaching it to others." I started doing as much research as I could on modern marketing on the web.
[00:57] Even though the book is geared towards SAS, all the principles of it can be applied to just about any online marketing in today's world. I started off writing these blog posts where I read some of the leading articles that were out there, some of the thought leaders. I interviewed people. I listened to a lot of podcasts and took a lot of notes.
[01:19] I just started distilling the information down, first in the blog posts and then eventually into the book, SaaS Marketing Essentials. That's where that came from, which is more a desire for me to have a handbook that had all these best practices that everybody else was sharing intermixed with some of my own results that I started seeing since I'd been applying those tactics.

Andy: [01:43] You said you were distilling it down on some blog posts in beginning. Was this just on your personal blog, or where did you start putting this stuff out there?

Ryan: [01:50] Yeah, it was on ryanbattles.com, which is my personal blog, which started off just being more personal rants. Every once in a while, as a developer, type out an article on how I did something development wise, like a problem I had before Stack Exchange took off. The only place that you could learn how to do a lot of this stuff was people's personal blogs.
[02:15] I got traction doing that, but that was traction from developers. I was kind of surprised when I started writing about SaaS marketing. It was just kind of a pivot in the blogs content. I think it all got shared quite a bit more than I had anticipated, so that was cool to see the traffic numbers go up and people signing up for the email list.
[02:39] Then I started becoming known for an article that I wrote. Somebody’d be like, “Oh, you’re the guy that wrote the article on Intercom,” or whatever. I’m like, “Oh, I guess, yeah.” [laughs]

Andy: [02:48] I guess I am, yeah.” [laughs] You started getting a little bit of Internet celebrity in that sense. But when you wrote this, I'm guessing you didn't just sit back like, "Oh, SaaS marketing seems really cool." When did you first start working with products, or have your own idea for launching a SaaS?

Ryan: [03:11] My first project that I made that makes recurring income, passive income is a site called Directory, which ExpressionEngine is the CMS that I was using as a developer. One of the things is, we had a vibrant community for our ExpressionEngine. But not everybody knew who everybody was, or where they were.
[03:32] We were like, alright, let's make an online directory of who these people are, and where they are. People can sign up for it. When we first launched it, me and my friend, Andy Johnson, who was working on a co working space with me, he was also an EE developer and designer.
[03:51] We built it together over a few weekends, and then launched it right before our conference. I thought, "Maybe we can get 20 or 30 of our friends to sign up for this thing." Before the day was over, we had almost 200 people sign up.

Andy: [04:03] Wow. [laughs]

Ryan: [04:04] We were like, "Ah, this is definitely striking a nerve with some people."
[04:09] The site just continued to grow and grow, and we eventually started selling advertising on it, and a job board now with paid jobs. We actually became the official job board for the ExpressionEngine product. We have a little partnership there with the company that makes it.
[04:25] That was our first product. Once we got a taste of that, Andy and I built out a few more things. We built a job board for web designers and developers called Find Bacon, which is still running, and generating some income.
[04:38] We created a site called Share the Shelf, where people can trade books, used books, online. Then we had this idea as freelancers ourselves, we were invoicing clients this idea to take FreshBooks and add into it a lot of the wish list of things we wish it had.
[04:59] As FreshBooks users, we liked the ability to track time and invoice people, but we didn't quite have a method to track our goals, or set freelancing goals and track our…

Andy: [05:12] Like financial goals?

Ryan: [05:13] Financial goals, yeah.
[05:14] For example, I quit a job and let's say I made like $60,000. You go into freelancing, and you're like, "alright, well I'm going to hope to make what I was making. If I can make $60,000 or more, that would be great."
[05:29] What I had to do was take that number, divide it by 12, track my progress towards it each month. It ended up just becoming a spreadsheet that got more and more complex. Then I was wanting to do graphs and charts to see where I'm at as far as my goals go. Then I would play with the numbers a bit.
[05:45] I'd be like, "alright, if I got this project, how would that affect where I am for the year? Will that put me on track, or would it put me behind track?" Other questions are, where am I expecting some payments for upcoming projects, and where does that leave a gap? Maybe, where do I need to pick up a job or two?
[06:02] Or the opposite of, is it OK for me to relax a little bit because I'm actually doing pretty good? A lot of those questions were questions that we had that we were using an external spreadsheet to handle in addition to our FreshBooks.
[06:16] Andy and I were like, "I wonder if we could actually build a product that has all these features built into it as well as doing the invoicing and time tracking, and all the stuff that FreshBooks does?"

Andy: [06:28] The thing is, when you're looking at that market, it seems like if you just focus on the invoicing side, there's dozens and dozens of alternatives out there. When you're looking there's really just not much else for the kind of financial planning side of it. You need to either do yourself in this spreadsheet or use another tool. Is that how the market looks now?

Ryan: [06:51] Yeah, for sure. There's another tool out there called Cushion that is coming out that does, actually, adding some of that layer on top of FreshBooks. He's approaching it a little bit differently than us, but he is also a designer.
[07:06] Sometimes we get compared to his tool, but ours is an all in one solution whereas he just interfaces with some of the tools that you might already be using. It's actually totally different products. I don't want to draw too much of a comparison between the two of us, but that sort of idea is starting to pop up, that people are feeling something is missing in that realm.
[07:29] A very prime example would be, in January one year, as a freelancer, I had not only some invoices from December get paid, but I had a big down payment for a major project that was going to take me into the first part of the year. My bank account at January looked amazing.
[07:47] [laughs] If I was going to go based off of that, that was not going to be sustainable. I had to do the math to even that out and try to think like, "OK, well, I know this is how much it says I'm going to make, but I'm probably not going to get another payment for the next three months."
[08:06] What's cool about Harpoon is that we actually visualize that entire scenario for you so that you can see, even though it looks like you have a lot of money, what that really means when it's spread out over the three months.

Andy: [08:19] Especially when you’re freelancing, or you’re a solo consultant, whatever you want to call it, when you’re working on projects, and that’s where your income is, it’s not a steady stream. You might have some retainer again, but you have this [inaudible] . For the most part, there's going to be some ups and downs that you need to math out.
[08:38] To back up a little bit, when did you go from, "alright, we have these spreadsheets. This kind of sucks. We wish there was a better product," to actually committing to creating Harpoon, which is your SaaS to solve this?

Ryan: [08:55] What it was was at first we decided we were not going to build all the invoicing and time tracking tools. We were actually going to build it on top of FreshBooks. We were like, "alright, how long is this going to take? Maybe a couple weeks?" We were really kind of naive about it. As we built that first version of the tool, it really didn't take us that long.
[09:16] We’ve been more of the just build it and throw it against the wall, like the spaghetti analogy, [laughs] and see what sticks. Some things, like Share to Shelf didn't really stick that well, the online book trading thing. We built it, but it was only some beer and pizza and some weekends to get it out there.
[09:36] We are big into building MVPs, so that's what we did with Harpoon, and we launched it with a minimal amount of work. The reception of it, people were excited and a lot of our friends tried it out.
[09:48] They gave us feedback, which basically led us to believe like, "OK, I think we need to actually build these features within," because people were doing a lot of double entry of their data. That just wasn't fun. That's when we decided, "OK, we need to…"
[10:05] We took a few weeks to really go back and forth and debate about this. "Are we going to go full fledged SaaS app on this? Are we just going to scrap it? Are we going to build something that's completely different?"
[10:18] After we wrote out a lot of pros and cons and put a lot of things on white boards, we decided, "alright. We're going to go for it. It's going to take a while. It's going to be a long, hard road, but I think we can do it." That was the birth of Harpoon version two.
[10:31] We pulled version one down, told everybody, "Thanks for trying it but we're going to have to retool it all." We did. That took us maybe 10 to 12 months before we were actually ready to launch it.

Andy: [10:42] When did that start? The V2?

Ryan: [10:45] I'd have to say 2014 to 2015 is when we were building it.

Andy: [10:53] That was when you were like, "alright. We're doubling down. We're going all in on this." That was also coinciding with, "alright. I need to get serious about the marketing side as well."

Ryan: [11:04] Exactly. That's when I started. We had hired a developer to do some of the development. I did all the development for version one in Laravel PHP, but then I knew. I'm more of a front end developer/designer. I was like, "You know, I don't know if I have the dev chops to actually building this thing out the way it needs to."
[11:24] We hired a developer, and then my role was focused on learning how to do the marketing. That's when I started my content machine that eventually became SaaS marketing essentials of just learning everything I could about SaaS marketing and applying it. Even with Harpoon, we were able to put up a landing page to try to get email interest.
[11:46] We were taking out advertisements against that. We were growing our list to several thousand people even before we launched.

Andy: [11:52] How were people finding that landing page?

Ryan: [11:54] Our primary advertising channel was through email advertising. We found email newsletters that were going out to freelance designers and developers. Typically advertisements in emails are less expensive than Web based ones. They have the added benefit of not getting stripped out by ad blockers. [laughs]
[12:16] When you're reading someone's email, you're more likely to actually see and read the ad versus something like a sidebar ad which, if it isn't blocked you're at least not looking over there reading anything. We got a lot better of a response from email advertising through other people's email lists.

Andy: [12:36] Was that something that you had found out in your research? Did someone tell you? When you first said it to me, "using email lists that aren't your own," that seems like a pretty old school tactic.
[12:49] When you describe it the way you just did, it's cheaper, AdBlock doesn't matter, you getting directly into people's inbox, again it makes a lot of sense. I'm just wondering. Where did that come from for you?

Ryan: [12:59] I had read the book "Traction," which has 19 different channels that they suggest that you try and go through. One of the principles of the book is trying to narrow down what works for you. I think again we were just trying different things. We tried Facebook ads, Google ads. We took out blog ads through different networks.
[13:27] The email ones were just the ones that were the cheapest and worked the best. When we reverse engineered it or asked ourselves why that might be, we were like, "Oh, the ad blocking. You're more likely to read an email." It just ended up making a lot of sense after we did one or two. When we realized how well it worked, we just kept doing it.

Andy: [13:48] That helped you build your launch list, right?

Ryan: [13:51] Yes. That was pretty much the biggest factor. We already had a little bit of a community as well through just conferences we had been to as designers and developers. Also running EE, our directory, we had a couple thousand people as well that knew us as the guys who built that. We were able to reach out to some of those people as well.

Andy: [14:16] It was leveraging your other networks and then using this channel for email ads to grow that pre launch list. As you were getting ready to go live with V2, what was your overall marketing pay from them? Was it just, "We'll promote it to this list, and we'll hope it spreads by word of mouth"? What was the thought process behind your steps after that?

Ryan: [14:41] We had, of course, emailed our list leading up to it. We had a discount for them being on the launch list. It was a time limited one, so they'd have to sign up, start entering their credit card, and use the discount code to get locked in at that early price, which we never did offer again. That was a nice exclusive to the people on our list.
[15:06] Then we continue to build our email list. What we found has given us every time we do this it gives us an influx of sign ups is when we release new features, it just turns out we'll say, "Hey, we just updated this or released this new feature."
[15:21] Then there's been a handful of people on our list that will email us back and say, "Oh, I was waiting until you guys were able to add that. Excited to join in now and use you as a tool." I don't know if that's unique to the space that we're in. I think a lot of our customers already use a tool like FreshBooks or Harvest. There's a certain subset of features that they're used to using.
[15:42] It's like a requirement if they're going to switch their tool and come over to ours even though we do have some nice to haves, like all the planning and financial stuff. They're still like, "Yeah, but I really need this recurring invoicing" or whatever that is. Once we're able to build those features out and we tell people about them, we always get a good response from our email list.

Andy: [16:04] Do you keep track of the people who request those features so you can contact them specifically?

Ryan: [16:11] We started off doing that in Intercom. We use Intercom for all of our communication, so we would tag them with the name of the feature they were requesting. Then we'd reach out to them. At the beginning we did that because there was a lot more holes in our product, but now at this point there's usually only one or two people requesting something before we release it.
[16:34] We just email them out personally and just say, "Hey, here it is." If we can, we try to turn little changes around super quick just to give them a wow or let them know that we're listening and that we care. These are usually things that we were planning on doing anyway. It's not like we're just doing whatever people ask us to do. We're like, "If we can turn that around real quick, let's do it."

Andy: [16:56] No, that's a good point. Because at a certain point, if you're attracting the right audience, you've attracted people who truly are your ideal customers, most of the features you probably have a reasonable idea of what they are if you've done your job of understanding the market. They're not just going to be these off the wall things. It's just a matter of prioritizing.
[17:17] You're not going to drop everything to make some custom feature that no one else wants to use. If they're reaching out about a feature that you could probably get out there reasonably quickly and it's something you're already planning, then it can make sense to give them that faster turnaround time.

Ryan: [17:32] It's been great. When they give us the positive feedback, it's just a little bit of work from us but made a friend or a fan out of them. I've been a fan of multiple products I've used in the past, too, because they've done the same thing for me. I feel a personal connection to the people behind the product.
[17:50] I'm not only more likely to use it, but I'm more likely to be an evangelist of it and share it with other people.

Andy: [17:56] Right. That's the stuff that everybody talks about in SaaS marketing, is you need to have evangelists, you need to have people talking about your product, that you need to have all these things, where it's hard to say, "OK, yeah great, but like, how do I do that?"
[18:12] This is one of those ways of being responsive and letting them know that you're not some big corporate machine, you're actually listening to them.

Ryan: [18:22] In fact, in SaaS Marketing Essentials, one of the last chapters is called, "Turning your customers into raving fans." That's the final step that we have, getting somebody to pay and use our product and not shun isn't enough for us. We want them to love it, and if they don't love it, we want to know why.
[18:40] It's, "Is there a way that we can make can make this thing something that they are super happy to share with other people and want to be our evangelists about?" Because at the end of the day, a lot of times we buy software or we make purchases based off of other people's recommendations.
[18:57] We could buy advertising until we're blue in the face but it's not going to be as effective as an army of people who are fans of our product and are sharing it with their networks.

Andy: [19:06] Are there other ways that you try to get people sharing and talking about your product?

Ryan: [19:14] That's something that we're talking about, ways to build in more viral loops. We do have an affiliate program that we invite people into, once they've been using the product for a little bit. We have that invitation triggered with Intercom, based off of usage patterns.
[19:33] We are slowly acquiring a larger and larger affiliate network, where people can earn money based off of the people they bring into the product, and it is a recurring income for them. It's a certain percentage each month that they will be getting. There's a nice incentive for them.
[19:53] It's like, "Hey, this isn't just a one off payment, you can actually be partners with Harpoon. If you bring some of your friends into it, then you will continue to see some of that reward as long as they love the tool, as well."

Andy: [20:06] Are you seeing some traction with that, because I know affiliate programs, so many people want them to work so much but it seems a lot of times it can be a hit or miss? Have you found success with that or is it in the early stages? Where do you see that fitting in right now?

Ryan: [20:23] I always thought that too, I thought, “All I have to do is give somebody an affiliate link and all of a sudden they’ll bring in 10 other people and those people will bring in 10 people.” [laughs]

Andy: [20:33] Exactly, the instant hockey stick.

Ryan: [20:35] It seems it should make sense. Who doesn't want more money, but truth be told, it's hard to get these people to actually want to promote it. We haven't found it to be a landslide success, but there are a few people that we've reached out to personally, that are thought leaders in the freelancing community, guys like Brennan Dunn.
[20:57] We put together a special offering for them and tried to get some key vocals folks out there to be proponents for us. Brennan helps by putting links to Harpoon within his Double Your Freelancing content and we found that to be a real big help. We track all of our referrers when people sign up and a good portion of them do come in from affiliate links.

Andy: [21:24] That's where it's almost like a concierge affiliate service, where you're looking for joint ventures, you're looking for partners where, instead of saying, "Hey, signup here, you'll get a link, share it out," you're really searching for people who are those ideal influencers and in helping them find ways to promote it so it's mutually beneficial.

Ryan: [21:45] Exactly. We have created collateral to help other people advertise. We do both. We have the automated emails going out that invite our customers to become advocates, but yes, we definitely target people strategically, as well. We have reached out to quite a few people to see if they wanted to be part of it with us.

Andy: [22:07] Where do you see the major leverage point for you guys to grow going forward, or is it, you're still at the phase where you're trying a bunch of different things to try to find that?

Ryan: [22:19] Yeah, we are. Unfortunately, something that's been a little bit of a negative over the last year, I would say, and it's not truly a negative, it's just something we didn't foresee.
[22:29] You had mentioned how many other tools there are out there. We've realize that in order to do an invoicing tool successfully, there's so many little details that need to get worked out, especially for international users that we didn't even anticipate. The way that their tax systems work…

Andy: [22:45] It's like all the edge cases.

Ryan: [22:47] Yeah, all these edge cases. Over half of our user base right now is non US, which totally shocked us because we launched only supporting the US dollar.
[22:58] [laughter]

Ryan: [22:58] We're like, "I don't need to worry about the international until we've cornered the US market," but it turns out, there's a ton of people in Europe that are like, "Hey, we would totally pay for this and use it if you could just support the Euro."
[23:11] We're like, "alright, how much is this really going to take in order to get this working?" It turns out, it wasn't so bad at all, but we had to learn a lot about number formatting, how they format their dates, everything needs to start being more and more variable.
[23:26] We had to spend a lot more time on development getting some of these features up to being on par with what some other tools are doing in the invoicing space. My role has, since we launched version two, fallen a lot more into a heavier development role than marketing.
[23:44] I've been spending more time doing front end design, JavaScript and development more than I probably would like to, in order to grow the product. I haven't been focusing on marketing as much as I wanted to in the beginning but there's light at the end of the tunnel.
[24:02] We are the point now where we've got the great majority of our features built and in testing and ready to go out. Over time, I will be transitioning into that market role and one of my first tasks is to systematically test and see what is our real big lever going to be here.

Andy: [24:23] It seems that's one of the main takeaways from SaaS Marketing Essentials is that, try different things to see what works because theoretically, in my mind, most channels should work for most companies.
[24:41] It's not always easy and there's going to be some different channels, some different methods, some different mediums that are going to work better. It's all a matter of figuring out those early leverage points before you do these deep dives and trying this one thing really well.

Ryan: [24:57] Yeah, for sure. I think it was Lars Lofgren that I heard say, “You don’t worry about other traction channels until you’ve really exhausted one or really gotten to know…” It takes months and months and hundreds of dollars to figure that out, maybe even thousands of dollars. Don’t just dabble in blogging with two blog posts and say, “Whoops! That didn’t work.” [laughs]

Andy: [25:21] That's what happens, so many times. It's like when every other month you hear about Facebook ads being dead or whatever is dead, and it's like, "Yeah, one blog post and one ad, whatever. You didn't even give yourself a chance to succeed." Where do you see yourself experimenting with first?

Ryan: [25:40] I think advertising. We did try some Google AdWords and they didn't do so well. I was reached out to by a concierge service through Google, where they will setup your AdWords for you, for free. I was like, "alright, that's fine. Let's see what you can come up with."
[25:59] They came up with a whole campaign, and they're like, "Just try this for three weeks and see what the results are." The results were way better than the ones that we had initially set up ourselves.
[26:10] I was thinking, with paid advertising, there's definitely an immediate return on your investment and it's really easy to track because you can see via those clicks, how many are turning into customers.
[26:24] I figured out a way to track in Intercom, where they're coming from and which ads they're clicking through and assigning those to their user behavior once they've signed up.
[26:33] Because with a lot of tools, you can measure them coming to your site, maybe even signing up but to find out, are you just getting a bunch of people who aren't going to eventually turn from trial to paid or are they people who are going to be there for one or two months and then bounce out.
[26:51] Getting a little bit of a deeper analytic into that, I'd like to try out different paid advertising channels. We've been working on content marketing, we can adjust that a little bit. That's one of my natural strengths, of being able to write and promote content, so I want to leverage that advantage that I've built up. Those are two of the ones that immediately come to mind.

Andy: [27:14] When are you hoping to make a switch, to take more of a marketing role? I know you said you see the light at the end of the tunnel, how far off do you think that is?

Ryan: [27:23] We have a milestone set to release in a couple of weeks here, so I think it's going to be within a month that that will be there, the primary role that I have.

Andy: [27:34] Nice. The last thing that I want to ask is, after you switch back to this marketing role, what does a year after that look like for you? I'm sure it's hard to predict that far out, but what are you hoping to achieve?

Ryan: [27:46] I'd like to continue growing the product and the team.
[27:50] I was in a mastermind group with a few guys who were in that phase where they were moving beyond one or two founders and were starting to hire more people and start to build out the team and build out the business. Justin McGill from LeadFuze is one of those guys.
[28:10] I was listening to these guys building this out, and Jordan Gal, and I’m like, “Oh man, I can’t wait to get to that point.” I think that’s where, hopefully, I’ll be in a year, is building up the team and having a whole new set of responsibilities. [laughs]

Andy: [28:26] It's exciting, but it can be a little scary at the same time, too.

Ryan: [28:29] Yeah. We want to, hopefully, stay small if we can. I don't know, it's hard to say. Right now, we think it would be ideal if we could keep this as a lifestyle business with a small team and something where we can, not have to worry about taking on investment and having the extra steps involved with that. That's why we've been bootstrapped for as long as we have.
[28:52] We've been approached with offers for money. A lot of us came out of venture funded companies before, we worked for them, so seeing what that's like, we're hoping to see if we can keep this thing bootstrapped as long as possible.

Andy: [29:09] You've seen how the sausage was made.

Ryan: [29:11] Yeah.
[29:11] [laughter]

Andy: [29:15] Whatever direction people want to go, if you want to stay bootstrapped, if you want to go the VC route, there's merit to both. But I think it's important to have an idea which you want, instead of letting whatever happen, because it's when
you're on the fence, you raise some money because people are coming to you with money, and then there's no real going back at that point.
[29:39] It's being clear about what your goals are because you can always change down the road but you don't want to jump into anything too soon, either.

Ryan: [29:46] I was on a little road trip with Allan Branch, out there at MicroConf. We went out to the Grand Canyon. We were talking, and he's like, "You know man, I get calls from investors," and he's like, "You know what I tell them?" I was like, "What do you tell them?" He goes, "I'm about to take three weeks to go out on my boat with my daughter."
[30:05] He's like, "If you invested in me, would you be OK with me going and doing that for the next three weeks?"
[30:10] [laughter]

Ryan: [30:10] They're all like, "No, definitely not." He's like, "Well, that's what I'm going to do." Hearing that, I'm like, "Yeah, that's right, man." I have four kids, so it's something, where spending time with my family and being able to invest in them is very important to me.
[30:30] Something I'd like to be able to do is take a lot of trips and work remotely and do a lot of things where I'm only necessarily accountable to my business and my business partners. I know with a lot of venture backed funds, they're looking for a 10x return on their money.
[30:43] While it definitely could be great to grow Harpoon to something where it's providing them a great return on their money, it's a whole different type of business that you're running at that point then. One where, I think, some of your personal freedoms are not always there.

Andy: [30:58] Right, you're building something entirely different. You're not building something that can provide for maybe 5, maybe 10 people a very good life. You're building something that is going to take your life and your team's life, for a few years at the very least, grow to something big five percent of the time, maybe one percent of the time, and kind of crash and burn the rest.
[31:20] It's not necessarily a sustainable, reliable thing. I've talked to many people, and there's a part of me that sees the appeal. That especially being a former professional poker player I can see the appeal of going for the big score.
[31:40] But, at the same time, especially when you do have a family, especially if you have different priorities, there are other ways.

Ryan: [31:48] Yeah. We're all making income in different ways while we're waiting for Harpoon to reach the point where it's providing a fulltime income for us. We're taking everything the business is making and rolling it back into itself. I haven't taken any kind of payments from it for as long as we've been doing it, and that's why.
[32:09] We're trying to do the sludge through it, and bootstrap it, and make money in other ways as we can. It's another reason why I wrote the book, so it all works out.

Andy: [32:21] That's great. Ryan, if people do want to follow this journey of yours with Harpoon, or even just check out Harpoon for themselves, where should they go to do that?

Ryan: [32:30] If you go to harpoonapp.com, that's harpoon with A P P on the end there, that is where you can see the product and you can keep in touch with the things that I'm up to in writing on ryanbattles.com or Ryan Battles on Twitter.

Andy: [32:46] Also, I'll make sure you get all that linked up in the show notes. Ryan, I just want to say thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Ryan: [32:51] Yeah, Andy. Thanks for having me. It's been fun.

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