Shai Schechter on Increasing Conversions With the Right Message


Today, on the Early-Stage Founder Show, I’m talking with Shai Schechter, the co-founder of, a SaaS tool that looks at browser, email, and other data to make it easy for you to personalize your marketing to give every user the right message.

In our chat, we dive into why personalization is so important, how to get started, and Shai shares some advanced tactics he has experimented with that are sure to improve your conversion rates.

If your website is serving all of your visitors the same, generic content, then this is the episode for you.

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Topics covered:

  • (00:08) – Brief Background
    • (00:10) – How working with SaaS companies gave Shai insight into the need for personalization when it comes to marketing websites.
  • (02:50) – Taking the data collected from analytics and turning it into something actionable.
    • (02:56) – Understanding buyer personas
    • (04:13) – Making a marketing website more like a one-on-one conversation.
  • (08:00) – When startups should begin thinking about personalization.
    • (08:44) – Shai advises early-stage startups to consider personalization after you’ve developed your message that resonates with your customers.
      • (10:03) – Refining that message.
      • (11:22) – Have conversations with the people you’re trying to resonate with and asking the right questions.
      • (13:20) – Be clear about your target market and your buyer persona.
  • (19:03) – Shai discusses advanced level personalization and what that looks like.
    • (19:54) – Segmentation of site pages.
    • (20:48) – Keeping track of basic user info and the path they take so as to personalize what they see on the website.
  • (22:25) –  How to make sure the personalization is correct.
    • (22:59) – Implicit signals.
      • Where they spent the most time on a site.
      • How they arrived at your site.
      • The first landing page they came to.
      • What they are reading on the blog.
    • (24:46) – Developing a confidence score based on user behavior.
    • (26:13) – Explicit signals.
      • When they become a customer.
      • If they tell you outright what their industry is.
      • Answers to simple survey pop-ups.
  • (31:14) – The time investment to personalization that early-stage startups will want to consider.
  • (32:37) – Recommendations for founders looking to get started with personalization.

Rapid-fire Questions:

  • (34:48) – What are you hoping to accomplish in the next quarter?
  • (35:25) – What is the biggest potential obstacle to those goals?

Where to learn more:

To hear more from Shai and Right Message head over to

And to get the latest information on their video course, as well as the most recent updates on the software launch, make sure to sign up with your email, as that list will receive it first.


Andy:  Shai, thanks for coming on the show.

Shai:  Thank you for having me.

Andy:  What is Right Message, and where did this idea come from?  00:00:08

Shai:  00:00:10  Ok, so I — a few years back I was, and for the last few years I’ve been working with startups with various SaaS companies on their mobile apps.  Right.  And we were — it’s like it was typical apps, where someone downloads the app and they log in to do something, and they’re paying for a month or whatever it is — and the app looks different depending on who’s logged into it right?  You know, every company logs in, they see their own dashboard, they see all this stuff — and I’m working with these companies, and they — and I’m sometimes looking at their marketing.

00:01:01  You know, see their website the whole time.  And we’re like — if your app is changing completely based on who’s on it, why is your marketing or website exactly the same for everyone?  That doesn’t sound like it’s a good way to get people in the door.  You have all these different customers and they’re all totally different right?

00:01:21  And the companies I’m working with are like, “Yeah that’s a great point, but with apps we know who someone is, because they’ve logged in.”  And I’m kind of thinking, it’s all the same stuff.  Like an Apple website is all of this bits and bites being sent from a server to someone’s screen.  There are ways that you like — you know things about the person who is on your website.  You know what they’ve been reading about on your blog, and you know, and you can track all of that kind of thing.

And they were tracking it.  They had analytics.  They were looking at all that stuff.  And then they’re showing all the same marketing to everyone.  00:02:02 [Edit Out] And it was just something that played at the back of my mind for awhile, and then — I lost my train of thought.  So sorry.

Andy:  No that’s ok. Again, I get this edited afterwards, so we’ll clean it all up.  00:02:19 [Edit Out] But it seems like when you’re talking about this, it’s like — I know exactly what you’re talking about, because sites — any startup right now, any founder, they know the importance of analytics.  Of tracking all of this.

00:02:34  And so they have so much data that they’re collecting, but it’s harder for them to actually turn that into insight and actually act on it.  So it’s like, when you said they know what blog posts you read, they know what you’re doing on their site.  That’s true, but what can they do with that?  00:02:50  What is — how are you trying to work with them to turn that data into something more actionable?

Shai:  00:02:56  Right, right.  So, the way I see it, if you’ve got a company and you’re chatting to somebody about it, you end up — you’ll talk about it slightly differently depending on who they are.  If you’re in a real live conversation and someone says — the things that you say to them are based on what they’ve just said to you.

You find out about the person, and if they are — if you’re talking to a potential customer and they say that there’s this thing that they really need from a product, and your product can do it, you say things like, “Yeah, my product can do that” and you show them that feature, because you know that they’re interested in it.  00:03:38  Whereas on — when you get to online marketing, and online marketing is amazing, because you don’t have to have an individual conversation with every single person who might buy your thing.  You have a website that is doing that for you.

00:03:53  But what you lose is that ability to be reactive.  To say things based on the person who you’re talking with.  Typically a website has its content and it’s giving that same content to everybody.  You’ve got that same messaging, that same marketing copy.

00:04:13  And you’ve got all these startups, and all these companies that are, like you say, they’re tracking, they’ve got analytics, they know what someone’s doing, and if you can just tie those two things together, if you can just say, “Based on what we know about this person who is on our website, what if we changed what our website said to them dynamically, on the fly, based on what we’ve learned about them.”  So how can we make that marketing website a little bit more like a one-on-one conversation.

Andy:  00:04:49  Interesting.  And that’s what Right Message is trying to do?

Shai:  00:04:51  And that’s what Right Message is trying to do.  Yeah.  Because it’s something I’ve been doing on my website and on my client’s websites for awhile, and seeing really good results.  Brennan Dunn, who I co-founded this with, has been doing it for a couple of years on his sites, DoubleYourFreelancing 00:05:11 and he’s like, “I wrote a few lines of code to do it, and it’s the most profitable code I’ve ever written.”  And I’m like, “Yeah, I reckon the same with mine.”  How many lines of code and how much more effective it makes your marketing site, and how many more conversions you’re getting, it’s crazy effective.

00:05:34  But there’s all these people who wanted — mostly who wanted an easier way of doing it on their site.  Yeah, it’s a bunch of lines of code, but you often have better things to be doing than writing a bunch of code to customize your marketing websites.  It’s not something — if you’re a marketing team, they’re not going to be jumping and doing that stuff.  And a dev team isn’t going to typically pulled across to your marketing site.

00:06:03  So we were like, what if we could give people the tools to be able to go to their own website and just point and click, and be like, “If the person who is on my site right now is…” — something really simple, “If they are already a customer, or they’re on our email list already, or whatever else, don’t show them a box inviting them to become a customer.  Or to join our email list.”  If you know they are already that thing, that’s a waste of space, it’s going to annoy them, and it’s not going to work, and it’s not effective because they’re already done that.

00:06:40  So what if you use that space on that website to say something more relevant to that person.  So they’re already a customer, in that space at the end of your blog where you say, why don’t you take a free trial — swap that out.  Swap it to — if they’re paying monthly, offer them an annual upgrade.  Or mention a feature that they haven’t used yet that you think might be useful for them.  That kind of thing.

Andy:  00:07:10  Yeah, because that’s something where it’s immediately obvious why that matters.  It’s like you can get a lot deeper with it, I know Brennan, especially on his site and some of the clients he’s worked with has gone deeper with that.

And for people who don’t know, Brennan’s site DoubleYourFreelancing 00:07:25 a lot of — he has freelancers from all walks of life coming through that site, and so what he’ll do, is if he knows you’re a designer, or if he knows you’re a developer, or if he knows whatever, he’s going to give you a specific message to speak directly to that.  00:07:40  He’ll show case studies, he’ll show testimonials from people like you to help increase the chance of you converting and becoming a customer yourself.

But the simplest thing is, if they’re already a subscriber, if they’re already a customer, don’t show them an offer to subscribe or become a customer.  That is truly a wasted space.

00:08:00  But what I want to talk about now is just a little bit more about when startups should start thinking about these things.  00:08:05  Because I know most early stage startups, what they do is they kind of throw up their site, their marketing site, they give it a once-over and really just move on.  And often go years without making any real changes there.

And that’s because at this early stage, they’re just so focused on improving the product.  00:08:22  And because of that, I think the approach is somewhat understandable, but they can just continue ignoring their messaging for ever.  00:08:30  And so, at what point do you think early-stage startups should be thinking deeper about this?  Is this something that they should be thinking about right out of the gate, or should they be waiting a little while to start experimenting with how they are positioning their product?

Shai:  00:08:44  Ok.  So, I think the stuff around personalizing the site for different visitors, that can come a little bit later.  That comes after you’ve found some messaging that resonates and you’ve got some customers and that kind of thing.  But focusing on — treating the marketing site as critically important is something that I think should happen from the beginning.

00:09:15  So much good stuff happens once you can find — once you find a way of describing your product in a way that truly, properly resonates with people and makes them desperate to want your product.  00:09:28  And I think it’s worth figuring that stuff out.  I think it’s worth investing time in doing that early on.

Andy:  00:09:36  And how do you recommend that people do that.  Because this is something that I think a lot of startup founders, again, agree with you on, but they’re not usually doing it that well.  Like they’ll say, “Yeah, yeah, we know what our customer is like, we know what they want and our site reflects that”, but then you’ll go to their website and the headline will be something like, The Best Way to Run Your Business.  And that’s not really speaking really to anybody.  00:10:03  So, how do you actually dial in the messaging to truly speak to the needs of your market?

Shai:  00:10:09  They’re speaking to your market, but actually speaking to them.  I think what you’ve hit on there is something I’ve seen a lot as well.  Having a conversation or two, and — or, “I’ve been in this industry for years, so I know what people want”, or “this is something that I would buy, so I know that other people would buy it”.  That kind of thing.

That kind of thinking is a fine way to get started, but you have to refine it, because somebody — even if your product is something that you yourself would buy, for example, the people who are coming to your website aren’t quite like you.  Because you already know your product inside out.  They don’t.

So, if putting together a marketing site, you need to be thinking, “The kind of person who is on my site reading this, what’s their frame of mind?”  If they’re someone who — they’re somebody who doesn’t know the product like you do, they — so the stuff that you say on your marketing site, can’t just be what you think is going to appeal to them.

00:11:22 You’re never, it’s never, you’re never going to get it quite right if you just make it up.  And I think the best way to start figuring out what your marketing site should say, is having conversations with the kinds of people who you’re trying to make it resonate with.  00:11:33  And if you can have the kind of conversations with them where you’re finding out, not just “oh what’s your favourite feature of our product?” but taking a step backwards and saying, “Why would this appeal to you in the first place?  What is the problem that you have that you’re trying to solve?  What’s bothering you right now?”  If it’s someone that has one of your products, talk to them about why did they buy it?  What was their life like before they had your product, and what did your product do that helped?  Where were they and where were they trying to get to?

Andy:  00:12:13  I think that is so important.  It’s actually something that — so I just joined on at Groove as a member of their marketing team, and it’s something that I’m diving into right now with them.  Is talking to our customers to create a better, more deliberate buyer persona.

And one of the big things that I’m focusing on, is having these conversations.  One on one conversations to learn, not just about why they say they chose Groove over any of the alternatives for help desk software 00:12:42 [To Be Confirmed], but more I want to dig into what made them realize that their current provider, their current solutions, whatever it was, wasn’t enough.  What was the catalyst that got them to start looking for alternatives.

And then when they’re looking at these, how are they weighing the different features?  How are they making their decision.  And when you can get those insights, then you’re able to really craft a messaging that actually speaks to the buyer because you know really their entire process that led them to you.  Or at least led them to your site.  And when you have that mindset, that’s when you can do some really interesting stuff in my opinion.

Shai:  00:13:20  Absolutely.  And I think the first thing, really, we haven’t really said it yet, first you need to know who those people are, like who is the target market?  And it sounds silly, to even have to talk about that, but I think often people don’t really sit down and say, “Who is the ideal buyer of this product?”  What are they — like you said, that buyer persona.  Who are they?  Are they in a certain industry?  Are they people that have a specific problem right now?  Just building up that idea of, “Who do I actually want buying this?  Who is this appealing to?”  If I could go to a — what would be the best conference to promote this at is always a good thing to think about.  Not necessarily to go and do that, but to be — aim to be starting to define who is this for?  Who do I think will want to pay money for this?  00:14:23

Andy:  00:14:25  That’s interesting.  It’s something where you see a lot of times that people just wave off that question.  Where they’ll say, “Well any business can use our product.”  And a lot of times they’re not necessarily wrong, but it’s really damn hard to market a product to any and every business.  When you’re not able to speak to them at all, because they all have such different needs.

Shai:  00:14:49  And to put it another way, when someone comes to your website, especially when they come for the first time, their number one question in their head is, “Is this thing going to help me?  Is this product going to help me?  Is it for me, and is it going to get me where I want to be?”  Probably in that order.  “Is this for me, and is this going to get me where I want to go?”

And, like you say, there a lot of products that yeah, probably any business in the world could benefit from it.  The trouble is, if your marketing site is talking in a way that is trying to appeal to all of those businesses, every single one of them is going to be reading it being like, “I’m not convinced this is for me, because it’s just too generic to…” — a great example is a guy who 00:15:45 — the guy I know who sells courses for authors.  Courses about launching your first book, publishing your first book, that kind of thing.  And he ran a survey with his customers and with people who didn’t buy to figure out, “Why didn’t you buy?”  And the number one reason why the fiction authors said they didn’t buy, was they were like, “Ahhh I was reading your stuff, and I just felt it was more for non-fiction authors, I didn’t think it would help me.”

And the number one reason why the non-fiction authors said they didn’t buy was, “Ahhh, I really felt like it was more for the fiction authors.”  Right?  People, especially when they don’t know your brand yet and they’re on your website, they’re kind of looking for any reason not to buy.  00:16:39  And so if the stuff you’re saying doesn’t sound like it appeals exactly to them, then they’re going to assume it’s just for someone else and they’re going to leave.

Andy:  00:16:48  Yup.  It’s something where, if I’m honest with myself and think about how I evaluate other companies’ marketing when I’m actually in the market for a solution that they may provide — if it’s something where it’s a deep pain, or for whatever reason, I’m really concerned about getting an outcome to this, I’ll put in some more work and I’ll look past their generic marketing and try to figure out, “Alright is this something — could this actually fix my problem, could this actually do it?”

But it puts up a pretty big barrier, where unless this is a burning solution — a burning problem, I’m probably just going to jump to the next one.  Like, “Ahh, not worth my time to really dig into this, it doesn’t seem like it’s a good fit.”

00:17:28  But if someone is able to tap into what I’m going through and make it clear that this solves my exact problem in the way that I’m looking to do it, then I’ll just immediately pull out my credit card and sign up, because it’s like, “Alright, I don’t need to look at these other options, this does what I need to do.  I’ve clicked around a few different pages, it seems legit, alright whatever, I’ll sign up for the trial.”

And it’s getting that messaging right is just so important.  00:17:52  But what I want to talk about next is something that — I’m trying to figure out the best way to kind of set this up, because from my background in working with a lot of agencies, a lot of freelancers, there’s a concept of taking, kind of a niche positioning to really stand out from the market, by serving a core group of people with a specific problem.

00:18:16  And I know Brennan, his approach to this is that he loves positioning, he loves going after a niche, but he doesn’t think you necessarily have to focus your entire business around that.  And it seems like there’s a lot of overlap in what Right Message is trying to do, by allowing to you have that site that really can go after multiple different personas at the same time.

00:18:41 [Edit Out]  And so can you just talk to that pro-level tip of personalization and what this actually looks like in practice, where you’re able to go after multiple different segments of the market with that single site.  And this is definitely one of those questions that I’m going to edit, probably 90% of it, but I think you get what I’m going at 00:19:03 [To Be Edited].  Can you just talk a bit more about what this personalization really looks like?  That advanced level stuff.

Shai:  00:19:08  Yeah, ok.  So, for example, you know you often see marketing sites where they have a section for each industry?  They have a page dedicated to each industry and how their product helps specifically there.

Andy:  00:19:25  Yeah, like the ultimate — I’m looking — there’s one example I always go to, and they make great software, but their marketing site is the epitome of this.  I’m not going to name it, but I’m there right now and it’s like the ultimate solution for every team.

00:19:37  And then it’s like marketing teams, creative teams, software teams, support teams, enterprise.  They’re trying to cover everything and they at least do have pages you can go to that are customize, and that’s much better than a lot of people out there, but I know it’s not an ideal solution.

Shai:  00:19:54  Right.  So, the reason they’re doing that is sound.  They reason they have those separate — the reason they don’t just say teams and then leave it there, the reason that they then have all those separate landing pages for industries is because, psychologically, that massively works.

Somebody wants to know, “Can this help me?”  And if I’m a law firm, then I want to see testimonials from other law firms that it’s helped.  I don’t want to have to read something generic and then translate it in my head to like, “Could this help me?”  I want to see examples of it helping people just like me.

00:20:29  And that’s why they have those industry pages.  It totally works.  The trouble is, those pages are just a one stand alone thing that you have to go and self-identify as.  And you typically aren’t going to buy there and then, because most people don’t buy the first time they ever hear about something.

And so, they’ll come back to your — they’ll think about it, they’ll go away, they’ll come back to your homepage the following week and it’s back to hey, we can help all teams.  00:20:53  And it’s like, “Dude, you know that I’m — the segment I just clicked on.  I told you a week ago.  I spent ten minutes reading about how your website helps healthcare companies, and now I’m back on your homepage.

Chances are, I’m still a healthcare company.  I haven’t just taken a massive career change this week.”  So personalization is just about taking that — it’s very proven psychological, scientific stuff of — your marketing is going to resonate more if it can talk more specifically to the person reading.  And say let’s just keep track of basic things about the person.  Like, “They went to our landing page dedicated to that segment, that industry.  Let’s keep track of that and personalize the homepage to talk more about how it can help that industry.  Just to keep reinforce how it can help that person right there and then.”

Andy:  00:21:55  And I mean, this is something that in my opinion the mindset of startups is to test everything.  To test everything, you need to make sure that the changes you are making are an actual improvement over the control.

Over what you are doing now.  00:22:13  But with this, it’s just a clear improvement.  If I can speak to one person specifically and their specific needs, that’s going to be better than trying to speak to everybody.

But, I get the premise.  I get that this is better.  00:22:25  But my question is how do you make sure you get this personalization right?  If I click — a lot of times I’ll just go to a website and click around on different pages without a ton of though behind it.

So like, alright the ultimate solution for every team, it defaults to marketing teams, I’ll click on software teams just to see, “Oh maybe there’s some other features I can use.”  I’ll also check out the support team page.  So how do you make sure that when you’re serving this information, you actually know with a good deal of accuracy, who that customer is?

Shai:  00:22:59  So, it’s actually something that I’ve tracked quite a bit.  And you’re spot on.  What people will do, is they’ll read the page that is designed for them and their industry, and they’ll normally flip through on or two others as well.

The difference is that they’ll spend several minutes on one of them and they’re scrolling through it, and you can tell they’re reading it.  Whereas, the others they’re just having a quick skim.  But what you say is really important.

00:23:25  Often these aren’t explicit signals.  And so what we’re doing with Right Message, is really cool.  We’re saying sometimes there are explicit signals like when someone outright tells you something, but often times, it’s all these dozens of implicit signals that overall you combine them all and you can get a really good view of who someone is.

But at first you might not have this guaranteed certain view of who they are.  And so we’re building into Right Message a really cool stuff around that where you can say, “If we know for certain that the person on the site is in health care, show the health care testimonials and show the health care headline, and talk all about how it helps healthcare companies.

00:24:09  But otherwise, pick up all these implicit signals, what did they — what was the first landing page they hit?  Did they come to your site through a Google search that took them straight to the health care landing page?  And what have they been reading on your blog?  Have they been focusing more of their time and attention on the articles that are to do with a certain industry?  Or they’re to do with — it’s not just industries, it might be to do with their motivation, their needs, why they want your product.  And you can build up a really good picture over time with those implicit signals of who they might be.

00:24:46  That’s what we do with Right Message, is we basically gonna — it’s basically going to be able to tell you maybe there is a 70% chance this person is in health care, there’s a 20% chance they’re actually in education.  It’s going to have these confidence scores.

And when you set up your personalization, you’re going to be able to say, maybe, show this headline only if we’re 100% sure, but then show — when we put all the testimonials up on the homepage, just reorder them in order of how confident we are that they’re in each segment.

Andy:  00:25:26  That’s interesting

Shai:  00:25:28  Most confident — yeah, we’re not certain that they’re in health care, but that’s the one that we think is most likely based on these implicit things they’ve been doing.  They spent more time reading the health care landing page than the other ones.  So just re-order the testimonials, put the health care one up top.  00:25:41  If we’re wrong, you’re no worse off.  But chances are, that’s going to make them sit up and take note and not bounce.

Andy:  00:25:50  That’s really interesting.  Because that was going to be one of my questions.  Is there some sort of confidence rating?  Is there something that says how likely people are to fall into that?

And I’m guessing that is not a simple thing for you to calculate on your end, but it’s clearly important.  00:26:07  And so I understand the implicit signals that you have to kind of weigh the probabilities of, but you mentioned earlier the explicit signals.  00:26:13  When someone literally tells you what they do, what they’re looking for, whatever it is.  How do you get those explicit signals from someone who is browsing your site?

Shai:  00:26:26  Ok, so some of them are really obvious.  The explicit signal of, or the segment of, are they a customer or not?  And that’s pretty 00:26:35 [Inaudible].  They are or they aren’t.  And you can get fancier and say, “Well they used to be”.  That’s a valuable thing to know.  But customer is yes or no.  You find that out by, they bought.

But with other things, often there are really easy and useful and valuable ways of just asking on your site.  00:27:02  I mean, if you put a massive survey in front of someone, they’re not going to fill it out.

If you, let’s say, pop up an optional question, just in in the bottom right corner of the site — and we’re building out — Right Message is going to have widgets that do this.  But you just pop up a question of, you know, “Which one of these industries are you in?  So we can make this slightly more relevant to you, which one of these are you?”

Typically, we see 10-20% of the time those get answered.  It blew my mind at first.  But people are really happy to answer things like that.  00:27:38  And, I mean the other thing that is going to be really nice because our message is measuring confidences and things, is you’ll be able to set it up to say, “Maybe I don’t want to ask someone straight away what they are.”

But you might say something like, “Once their confident score, once we’re 30%, 40%, 50% confident that they are whatever segment, then pop up a question and say, “Based on what you’re reading, we think you’re X, is that right?”  And that gets an even higher click rate.

Andy:  00:28:14  Interesting.

Shai:  00:28:16  And if they say yes then you can shoot the confidence score on that way up, and if they say no, then you might want to follow up and say, “Oh we messed up, which one are you?”

Andy:  00:28:28  That’s really smart.  That’s like — and one of the things while I’m thinking about this, is that like you said, they’re not buying on the first visit to the site, they’re not buying on the second visit even, so when you ask these questions, when you give them these simple surveys, they’re a lot of times going to forget about this, and when they keep coming back and see that really personalized messaging, that’s going to stand out in their mind.

They’re not going to be thinking, “Oh they know this because I told them.”  And even if they thought that, that’s not a bad thing, obviously, but this is just going to make you stand out so much from the competition.

00:29:05  Because, if I’m comparing four different sites, and one of them seems to somehow, almost magically, be able to continuously refine their messaging to speak directly to my needs, that’s the one I’m going to keep going back to and probably end up buying from.

Shai:  00:29:21  Yeah.  And one thing people often ask is like, “What if this annoys people?  What if they find it really creepy?”  And it’s a valid question, but all the data suggests that people love it.  00:29:34  I think — I saw something recently that surveyed a couple of thousand — that surveyed a whole — what was it — I need to dig it out.  00:29:48 [Edit Out]  I think the stat was something like 72% of people are frustrated when the marketing is generic.  Not when it’s personalized.  People hate when — people want to find something that is going to solve their problems, so when they see something generic, that’s not good for them and they don’t like it, and people get frustrated.  So people now that companies should know this stuff.

Andy:  00:30:17  Right.  And that’s the thing, people — I can understand some of it when it’s like the creepy Facebook ads, where you’re like, “Ahhh, how do they know this about me.  How did this and that.”  I can understand people being turned off by that one.  In my opinion, if it’s done right, it’s a value add.

But for this, it’s like, especially in the B2B SaaS business, you’re — people are looking for this solution.  When they come across this site, they’re trying to have their problem solved.  And so when you’re able to personalize your messaging, your marketing, you’re making the job a lot easier for them, and people aren’t going to be pissed off at you for doing that.

Shai:  00:30:54  Exactly.  Exactly.  You’re making it easier for them.  The experience is better for them.  They don’t have to spend an hour fumbling around your site trying to find the right 00:31:04 [Inaudible] and figure out if this is going to work.  If you can put the right stuff in front of them to show them how your product can help them, it’s better for you and better for them.

Andy:  00:31:14  And so, the last thing I want to ask about this, is just, hearing you talk about this, I’m fully bought in, and I’m probably going to talk to you later about how we can test this out at Groove down the road.

But I’m curious though, because for — I know a lot of the early-stage startups don’t have a full marketing team.  They don’t have a big team to help implement all of this.  So how much work is all of this?  And I’m sure getting the fancy, complex, conditional statements set up so you show all these different surveys based on all that is going to take some time, but to get started, how much time does this actually take?  What is the investment that a startup would need to make?  Not in terms of money, but in terms of time?

Shai:  00:31:55  Right now it takes quite a lot of time.  A few weeks once we’re at messages is more publicly available.  Getting started is going to be a very low time investment.  Because you’ll be able to set something up really basic, and then — we’re building a 00:32:18 [Inaudible] goal-tracking, so you’ll be able to see what’s working and what’s not working.  There’s not going to be any guess work involved.  So getting started is just going to be, you can set one little personalization up and see how it works, see how it performs.  Does that answer your question?

Andy:  00:32:37  Yeah.  And so, what I want to ask now then, is what do you recommend for that founder who is just looking to get started.  They’re just looking to get their feet wet, see what sort of improvements they can get from personalization.  Like, what would you suggest as that first step that they should take.

Shai:  00:32:54  I think a really good first step is just, “Is this visitor a customer or not.”  That’s typically — I think often people make the mistake of thinking — let’s say you have a blog, people make the mistake of thinking that the blog is for people who haven’t signed up yet, and then once someone signs up for a product, they never visit the blog again.  And it’s just not the case.

People, once they’ve signed up, they’re still going to want to read stuff from you, and maybe even more than before.  And if they’re on your blog, and your blog is inviting them to sign up for a trial, or it’s inviting them to join an email list, I think that’s a really good way to get started with personalization.  Is just to say, “Let’s swap that out for something that is relevant for customers.”  Like what would I say if I bumped into this customer in real life?  I sure as hell wouldn’t say, “Hey sign up for a trial.”  So what would I say to them, and just swap that out instead.  I think that’s a really good place to start.

Andy:  00:34:02  That’s really great information, and so before we wrap up, I like to ask all my guests a few rapid fire questions.  And so I’ll go through them pretty quickly, but your answers don’t need to be too short.  00:34:10  [Edit Out]  And the first one is just what are you currently spending too much time doing?

Shai:  00:34:16  Good question.  Come back to it.

Andy:  00:34:27  Well what are you not spending enough time doing?  What do you wish you were able to put more hours towards?

Shai:  00:34:33  I hate these questions.

Andy:  00:34:41  Alright, what we’ll do is we’ll skip these ones and I’m hoping you’ll be able to answer these last two.  00:34:45 [Edit Out]

00:34:48  What are you hoping to accomplish in the next quarter with Right Message?

Shai:  00:34:53  Next quarter is going to be big for Right Message, because this quarter will be going from people privately testing it out, to it being more publicly available.  So, there’s going to be — yeah, there’s a lot happening this quarter.  We’ll be having real people being able to sign up, use it, see how it’s helping, see how it’s increasing their conversions.  It’s an exciting few months coming up.

Andy:  00:35:25  And then, in your opinion, what is the biggest obstacle that you’re going to have to overcome to have that successful launch?

Shai:  00:35:36  I think it’s an education thing.  Once people know about personalization and segmentation, and once they have seen the results, they’ve seen examples of how it helps, they’re totally bought in.  Most people aren’t even aware that this stuff is possible.

Andy:  00:36:02  They’re not looking for this solution right now.

Shai:  00:36:03  Right.  So there’s not a learning curve in terms of using it, but there’s a learning curve in terms of learning why they should do it in the first place.  They’re not aware that the solution is available.  So a big thing we’re doing, is we’re about to roll out a video course all about marketing segmentation, personalizing, and measuring results.  Just to help people get an idea.

We want people using our software that are going to be successful with it.  We don’t want someone to sign up if they have no idea why it’s going to be useful.  They’re just going to try it, it’s not going to work and they’re going to 00:36:41 [Inaudible].  So, we’re actually, we’re talking about making it compulsory to go through the course before you use it.  I don’t know if we’ll actually do that, but …

Andy:  00:36:52  Nathan Barry did that back in the day with ConvertKit, right in the start.

Shai:  00:36:55  Right.  So yeah, it’s going to be — that’s going to be a big thing.  If we want to really help people understand what is possible, and so we’ve got a really cool course that is about to come out that is going to do that.  We’re also going to have, we’re going to have two product tiers.  One where it’s full on personalization and then a lower one where it just personalizes 15% of your traffic.  Just so you can try it, it’s going to be tracking all of your — tracking your conversions, and it’ll spit out a report saying, “This is how many people converted when they weren’t personalized, and this is how successful your personalization was.”

And if you can see that you’re making, you’re getting more conversions, you’re making more money from personalizing from naught, it’s going to be a natural next step to pull the trigger and increase how much you’re doing.  00:37:54  But just that lower tier that’s going to let people test the water, make sure it works on their own sites.

Andy:  00:37:59  And so, if listeners want to hear more from you, if they want to check out some of these things that you just mentioned, the video course, they want to hear about the launch, they want to just see how Right Message can help their startup, where is the best place for them to go?

Shai:  00:38:13  So you want to go to and pop your email address in.  Because all of it’s going to go to that list first.  That’s where to go if you’re interested in the video course, if you’re interested in the software, it’s all there.

Andy:  00:38:32  Awesome.  I’ll make sure to get that all linked up in the show notes, and Shai, I just want to say thank you so much for your time, it was a lot of fun chatting.

Shai:  Thank you for having me, it’s been great.